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Joined: Mar '11
Location: United States
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 178
I think you caused him to call because you shoved, it made you look desperate even if you werent. I bet he'd of folded to a half pot raise, it looks more like you have a made hand and your trying to get value. As far as the final card...the odds at that point were in his favor (as far as you new) for him to hit flush it really was a toss up at that point
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by jessthehuman: Firstly, just a little bit of info: Hand equity on the flop: 9s10s 54.35% Ad8d 45.65% on the turn: 9s10S: 75% Ad8d: 25%
Pre flop - I like the limp - if you're in position, if you're UTG then snap fold. This is probably about as low as you can let your stack go and still be limping though.
On the flop: OK - this is a pretty good flop for you - 2 over cards + FD. However, I wouldn't open raise - on the flop I would shove over any body else's raise (I'm an aggressive c*nt) or see a free turn. Reason: I don't want to put in a raise here and get flat called - there's a LOT of bad turns that can leave us in a s**tty spot on the turn. However, shoving somebody elses raises is perfect you then include some nice fold equity - or you get to buy tow cards and eliminate any tough decision on the turn.
As played to the turn - This is a great turn card obv, flush be better, but now you have top pair plus FD. Allin here is the only move you have and definitely correct.
As you can see from equity opponent is only getting 25% on his hand.. He is calling 1300 to win 2300. This means his pot odds are 1.8:1 or 35.7% - meaning he needs to win this hand 35.7% of the time - but as you can see above - he is only winning 25% of the time. So s**t call from villain. Obv villain is a total fish incapable of figuring pot odds and still willing to stack off on a FD on the turn.
------------ FYI: I think player2/villain is a big enough n00b to see that hand to the river regardless of the play. So in some respects, I think you are always losing this hand. I'd happily put $20 down that says player2 is calling an open shove on the flop as well.
Jess pretty much sums it up perfectly. Just a couple of comments:
To those saying he is "short-stacked"...he is not! This is not a tournament, it´s an Sng. Depending on the structure (ie. turbo, regular), starting stack (usually 1.500), and the fact that in an SNG are worth a lot more early on that in the later stages, 1.750chips to 75/150 blinds seems fine to me. (not having all this info and making a general assumption)
Good Sng play is defined in the later stages, the Push or Fold stages. Knowing how many players were left and stacks sizes would have been helpful.
Just some advice: Limping in position with 10-9s was fine. Like Jess says, I would not have raised on that flop. Your chips are still too valuable, see what develops on the flop because you still do not have a hand. The Turn: here you should raise first time for sure. The board is perfect for your pockets. Let the idiot call. 10 paired and a "possible" flop is still not a winning hand. When the hits, see what he does and go from there. Small raise....call. All-in fold and pick a safer spot later on. Either way you are still in the game, blinds will rise, and the Push or Fold stage will define your results.
Donks like that are now playing up to $10+1 SnG´s, and it´s not worth risking your whole stack still that early in the game.
This is correct Sng startegy. Try when the variables are good, but don´t commit unless you are pretty sure you have the nuts. Staying in the game while others get busted is the rule. The fewer the players, the better your cards, your odds, and the less you are risking Pushing your stack, value-wise.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Good advice IslandJack - especially regarding flop play. If Jovi made a mistake in this hand - it was definitely on the flop. Pre-flop and turn were both fine IMO.
@Killuminated - I agree shoves look desperate and there's plenty of times I've gotten to a river and though "f**k, I HAVE to fold to any decent bet here" and then the villain shoves so I snap call - knowing that they didn't want a caller.
However, in this case - the shoves is basically pot-sized and not many other bets make sense here, since they pretty much all pot commit anyhow. Why bet small and give a cheap river and a hard decision on the turn ? When you can shove and capitalize and fold equity..
I think villain is just a donk - and I seriously doubt they were folding to a smaller bet. The flat call on the flop by villain is horrible - and I don't think they were skilled enough to be floating then barreling the turn either.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
I definitely agree that the villain is a donk, he would have called anything anyway. But the point about how many players were left is still crucial.
Consider 10 players at 75/150 blinds and a 1.750 stack. You will reasonbly see another 6-7 rounds in a "regular" (10 min) blind game. That´s 60-70 pocket cards to come before you get blinded out. If there were only 5 players left, that´s a whole different story altogether.
The most important point that I was trying to make was that, assuming there were still 9-10 players left, the hand did not warrant an all-in in any case. Not having this information, I presumed a lot of players at the table. Many people tend to forget this factor and just play a hand that can be beat to the limit too early on in the game. That´s what SnG players thrive on (at least I do).
So many people still don´t understand the increasing value of you chips as the players get eliminated, the number of pockets you will still get to see, and the fact that the lesser the players at the table, the whole dynamics of the game changes.
I just love it when I am playing super-tight until about 5 players left (as you should always do and depending on the blind structure). Then I make a big hand and get agressive all of a sudden, right to the end. They don´t have a clue where to range you etc. etc. I´ve dumped more pocket pairs, including QQ to an all-in, and AK´s in the early stages of an SnG than most people would believe. The only exceptions are AA and KK, because that would be statistically incorrect, and especially dump the rest fast if you have a good end game. Dump that QQ! Of course the big money SnG players all play this way, so there are more players left in those games as the the Push or Fold stage begins and the risk of getting blinded out increases. And that makes those games more difficult and complex, and is where an "air-tight" Push or Fold game comes into play. (something I am FAR from having right now, I am all too aware of that). Takes a LOT of analysis and practice, and I´m just too lazy. Otherwise i would be upping my limits big-time.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Philippines
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1011
Posted by jovicakralj: Well, I played 3,45$ shg on PKR.... Blinds are 75/150 I have 9 10 limp, two people besides me are in pot. Flop is 2 3 7 I put 300 raise and player1 folds and player2 on big blind calls. Turn is 10 Pot is already 1000 and I have 1300 chips left so I go all in! player2 calls and show A 8 Turn comes J Now Im tilted and ask him in chat is he retarded and how he can call that? And how comes always donkeys get rewarded... And player3 that is btw calling station says to me: you are retarded, she played perfectly, you are folding all the time... IM SO PISSED RIGHT NOW!!!!! HE TELL ME THAT PLAYER2 PLAYED WELL AND THAT IM RETARDED! GUESS HE DIDNT HEARD FOR TIGHT PLAY ALSO....
player 2 is difinitely played a retard, but then agin; maybe, he's just feeling lucky... otherwise he might have thought you were bluffing... in any case you both played bad, and he played worse than you... lol
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
maybe, he's just feeling lucky. OH, THEN ITS OK! Welcome back Oliver!
@Island and Jess: Im sure that if I only checked flop and post that here everybody would say to me: well, you played bad, you have checked the flop and allowed him to catch that flush draw! Anyway, I dont think that way things would be any different. I would raise pot sized bet on turn (450) and left with 850 chips. That is too low and I didnt want some over card or another diamond to come and give me hard decision. Also you must know that I played against two players on flop so....
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Yeah - as I say - I only say - I only fault the flop play if I'm looking for a flaw in your play.. But ultimately - villain played like a total donk. Your play was OK.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
Posted by jovicakralj: Welcome back Oliver!
Yeah, welcome back!
I see similar weird calling of hands when playing low dollar SNGs Jovi. Most of the time you will win those hands but sometimes they turn against you, partly because your opponent doesn't have a lot invested and doesn't care whether he wins or loses at that point. I played a few low dollar 6person turbo SNGs last night, and did well for the most part by being ahead percentage-wise, but on one of them late in the tourney every time I was ahead preflop I lost.
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
lol glad i read this again i thought he had an open ended str8 and nut flush draw, yea guys an idiot you just cant get some donkeys to fold a flush draw on the turn. i lose to this kind of play often, you know they have a flush draw and go all in and they still call. but yea agree with jess and jack ul jovi
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by Fackinas: jovaci - bet your draws is not good u need to buy them as cheap as u can..
You made bet because you had flush draw and u thought it is good hand but it is not and u lost..
I think you need to learn lot about poker mate. Aggression is good in poker. When you are in position and you have draw you should (almost) always bet it. As you can see if this guy isnt total retard he wold fold right away on flop and I would own that pot. If you really think that is wrong to raise on draw in position then you have HUGE leak in your game and you are passive player or even worse calling station...
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 2805
u both played fishing game so u both playing very bad and if no on the river he will loose it but u also had draw after flop and really a pair after the turn but this pair was only 50/50 % chanses for both he was lucky river player but u bth are donks ....... good luck and never donk
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 33 (F)
Posts: 1180
+1 mazas :} and jovaci being aggresive is good but betting your draws is not good too.. u should read more not I ... Reading do not do anything if you are not counting odds.. So do not bet draws.. it is not good at all
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by Fackinas: +1 mazas :} and jovaci being aggresive is good but betting your draws is not good too.. u should read more not I ... Reading do not do anything if you are not counting odds.. So do not bet draws.. it is not good at all
Its Jovica not Jovaci You are wrong. With draw Im ahead and I always bet when I think Im ahead. Also I was in position and they checked to me. Not betting there you will alow them to bet later.
I have question for you: If that player bet half pot would you call with your draw?
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 696
on flop he has 45% and maybe he got you only on a draw like 4/5 or flush draw then he is big in front on the turn with over 70% and when u hit the flop he got 35% but you played the flop not as you hit with a bet from 300 you limped and you say u got a tight image so i think he got u on jq spades or kq i think when u have a strong ace you had make a raise preflop. Maybe he is only a donk but a good player had do the same when he got a read on you.
------------ that u have only a Flush draw ok u hit the 10 on turn and he hand is very unlucky for u. But how i say when he had think u got only a draw he is right
------------
Posted by jovicakralj:
Posted by Fackinas: +1 mazas :} and jovaci being aggresive is good but betting your draws is not good too.. u should read more not I ... Reading do not do anything if you are not counting odds.. So do not bet draws.. it is not good at all
Its Jovica not Jovaci You are wrong. With draw Im ahead and I always bet when I think Im ahead. Also I was in position and they checked to me. Not betting there you will alow them to bet later.
I have question for you: If that player bet half pot would you call with your draw?
LOl you´re not in front with a draw. A draw is only a draw
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 33 (F)
Posts: 1180
If that player bet half pot would you call with your draw?
If bet on flop I should know cards but at the turn I would fold for sure I have only 20% to catch it on the flop I have 35% so if u will bet always your draw u will lose in long term ..
BTW today was very bad day for me about poker fack fack fack..
hits, see what he does and go from there. Small raise....call. 
10 
maybe, he's just feeling lucky. OH, THEN ITS OK! Welcome back Oliver!
ul jovi
