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Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Well, I just finished playing in 5,5$ Atlantis deep stack on PKR (350 entrants) I had pretty healthy stack until bubble time. Then lost 3 all ins again short stacks. One hit his K on river, one runner, runner flush... So I was down to 10 000 chips with small blind on me. (blinds 1250/2500 +250 ante) Everyone folded and I have 6 4 Guy on BB was guy that was very tight and actually he managed to get to ITM cause he hit that runner runner flush against me. BTW. we was in the money. So, I look at pot (6250) and look at my stack 10 000, look at player who played very tight and very scared and have 13 000 chips... And go ALL IN. He thinks and call me with Q10. Flop was QQ10 so there was my end...
I want to ask you more experienced MTT players (Jess, Doomdy, Island, B1gfoot...) what you think about that move? I lost my patience there. But somehow felt that I must do that. Thought that Im too short, there was decent chance that player will fold and pot is more then half of my stack... Thought also that even if I get called I get 30% chance of winning if that player dont have pair...
Joined: Jan '10
Location: Germany
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1379
Even though i am not mentioned i try to tell you that in my eyes that was ok more or less. If you say the BB was a rock, then pushing here is quite nice, because normally a rock would fold QT here. But there is one problem: You mentioned the bubble. Are you sure he really was that tight? Or was he only tight during the bubble for folding into the money? So what i fear is that you got a wrong read!
On the other hand still, you were just really shortstacked and so there were only few things possible: Moving up a little by several blind stealings or double up a little. But of course you cant wait for the super spots. With 46s you will mostly not be dominated by the standard calls of AT+. So i say it´s okay, was a little bad luck (or wrong observation of your opponent) but still, congtars to at least cashing.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Bubble or not, rock or maniac, nothing to do with this, just shove. Wot better spot you want being shortstacked and getting a flip with any 2. Easy shove with any 2.
i would do that move to buth not when i'm at the bubble time!! when i'm short stack and only against the big blind buth you have to know that your chances are very low with that cards. And when i am at the bubble i just fold that hand to be sure that i'm nat the bubbleboy
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
i dont play MTT much but ITM short stacked against a tight player with so much in pot - easy shove for me. and with decent equity (except a pair) against his calling range its worth the risk. think he must be thinking on similar line when he took your call
Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 3361
I'm a newby so wouldn't have even played this hand! I understand your scenario, but even a suited 4,6 wouldn't provide enough comfort to call. I still play very conservitive especially nearing the bubble or on the bubble. Remember ! I'm the guy always asking advice or reading threads like this to learn something. Good Luck to All!
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by GIOMi6: I would suggest playing very tight if you are nearing the bubble, because a short stacked player is at risk of not placing in the money.
This is a common error. It is very important in MTT to stop worrying about being the bubble / being in the money.
If you take a look at my MTT graph I posted in my thread, when the starts spiking upwards is when I ramped up the aggression and stop playing scared.
If you're really worried about min-cashes and bubbles - I would suggest you're probably not rolled properly for the games your playing.
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
if im short in a mtt i will shove with cards like this to, i often think its better than an A rag or K rag because alot of people that call good chance they have one of them. all you can hope for when you shove is one they maybe fold and 2 your cards are live if they call
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Posted by OneBourbon: hehe...ludicrous. Thanks for the info - I'll put it in my player notes. Next time cash first then go allin wih Squat.
you have less that 10 bb are you waiting for As and by that time even if you do shove your still in the same position you are a short stack with the blinds even bigger
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
^ That's an excellent point as well flipped regarding having two live cards.. Another VERY common error (next to folding spots that are snap calls/shoves) you see short stacks making is over-valuing A rag hands.. Either by calling the allin with A rag (neglecting the gap concept) or by shoving it from UTG with around 10bb.. OK - if you're down to 1-3bb then get it in with A rag any which way. But if you're sitting @ around 10bb only shove A rag if you're LP and not facing heavy action, if others have already raised and re raised sticking your last 10bb in with A5 is probably a bad idea.
Much better off sticking your short stack into a big juicy pot with 78s or something like that - 2 live cards against the AK, AJ, QK, etc. Can triple/quad up nicely this way.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Philippines
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 1011
Posted by jovicakralj: Well, I just finished playing in 5,5$ Atlantis deep stack on PKR (350 entrants) I had pretty healthy stack until bubble time. Then lost 3 all ins again short stacks. One hit his K on river, one runner, runner flush... So I was down to 10 000 chips with small blind on me. (blinds 1250/2500 +250 ante) Everyone folded and I have 6 4 Guy on BB was guy that was very tight and actually he managed to get to ITM cause he hit that runner runner flush against me. BTW. we was in the money. So, I look at pot (6250) and look at my stack 10 000, look at player who played very tight and very scared and have 13 000 chips... And go ALL IN. He thinks and call me with Q10. Flop was QQ10 so there was my end...
I want to ask you more experienced MTT players (Jess, Doomdy, Island, B1gfoot...) what you think about that move? I lost my patience there. But somehow felt that I must do that. Thought that Im too short, there was decent chance that player will fold and pot is more then half of my stack... Thought also that even if I get called I get 30% chance of winning if that player dont have pair...
Good or bad?
considering that u'v played against him b4, i would say u did what u had to do... maybe he's going somewhere, or might have something to go to in a hurry... lol
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 3871
Posted by jessthehuman:
This is a common error. It is very important in MTT to stop worrying about being the bubble / being in the money.
If you take a look at my MTT graph I posted in my thread, when the starts spiking upwards is when I ramped up the aggression and stop playing scared.
If you're really worried about min-cashes and bubbles - I would suggest you're probably not rolled properly for the games your playing.
Agree with this concept. Then what I try to consider before shoving any two cards is: am I going to face facing a regular MTT grinder or not? If the answer is yes then I know he has the same approach to mtt and I will shove only cards with some EV. If the answer is no or if he is a random player to me then I will shove atc.
In short words I care about my oppos to be MTT grinders or not
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by magatt966:
Posted by jessthehuman:
This is a common error. It is very important in MTT to stop worrying about being the bubble / being in the money.
If you take a look at my MTT graph I posted in my thread, when the starts spiking upwards is when I ramped up the aggression and stop playing scared.
If you're really worried about min-cashes and bubbles - I would suggest you're probably not rolled properly for the games your playing.
Agree with this concept. Then what I try to consider before shoving any two cards is: am I going to face facing a regular MTT grinder or not? If the answer is yes then I know he has the same approach to mtt and I will shove only cards with some EV. If the answer is no or if he is a random player to me then I will shove atc.
In short words I care about my oppos to be MTT grinders or not
yep this is also a very good point as the grinder will prob know what your up to
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by jessthehuman: ^ That's an excellent point as well flipped regarding having two live cards.. Another VERY common error (next to folding spots that are snap calls/shoves) you see short stacks making is over-valuing A rag hands.. Either by calling the allin with A rag (neglecting the gap concept) or by shoving it from UTG with around 10bb.. OK - if you're down to 1-3bb then get it in with A rag any which way. But if you're sitting @ around 10bb only shove A rag if you're LP and not facing heavy action, if others have already raised and re raised sticking your last 10bb in with A5 is probably a bad idea.
Much better off sticking your short stack into a big juicy pot with 78s or something like that - 2 live cards against the AK, AJ, QK, etc. Can triple/quad up nicely this way.
I forgot to say! Hand before that I was in BB with A3! And guy who also playing very tight and have about 12 bb raise 7500! And right before me there was chip leader with 130 000! So I knew that he wouldnt do that without pair or strong ace so I folded! He showed 1010. Lot of people wont understand this. I folded A3 hand before and now Im all in with 64. But, they must know that with 64 I have chance that bb will fold and also probably I have two live cards...
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 1242
Posted by jessthehuman: ^ That's an excellent point as well flipped regarding having two live cards.. Another VERY common error (next to folding spots that are snap calls/shoves) you see short stacks making is over-valuing A rag hands.. Either by calling the allin with A rag (neglecting the gap concept) or by shoving it from UTG with around 10bb.. OK - if you're down to 1-3bb then get it in with A rag any which way. But if you're sitting @ around 10bb only shove A rag if you're LP and not facing heavy action, if others have already raised and re raised sticking your last 10bb in with A5 is probably a bad idea.
Much better off sticking your short stack into a big juicy pot with 78s or something like that - 2 live cards against the AK, AJ, QK, etc. Can triple/quad up nicely this way.
Sorry guys, but I have to ask this, if I would like tol learn something here. I understand the situation and arguments for shoving this hand. But can anybody explain to me want is ment with "2 live cards" ?
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by MIGO14: But can anybody explain to me want is ment with "2 live cards" ?
"live cards" just mean they are cards not shared by your opponent.
EG: 78 vs AK you have two live cards "7" & "8"
Where as if you shove A7 into AK you have only one live card "7" since your Ace is effectively useless now. This is why dominated Aces etc are so risky.
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