Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
I´ve been playing for almost 2 years now (october).
What´s become glaringly obvious lately is not only the huge increase in online players, but also the "standard play" on MTTs and Sng´s up to $10.
What used to happen only in freerolls and $1-2 buy-ins, now has become standard Poker play apparently.
ANY pair...all-in. AK to A7 ..automatic all-in.
I´ve been asked on tables several times this week why I didn´t go all-in pre-flop with 55, 66, QQ. I explain that I don´t play that way and prefer to see a flop with anything but AA or KK. They really don´t get it!
I´d like to know who EVER made a final table by playing ALL their pairs all-in pre-flop?? Nobody. That´s who.
You can´t possibly "coinflip" your way through 2.000-3.000 runners and hope to get anywhere near the Final Table. Where 2-3 months ago I was making a lot of final tables, now that I started up again I sometimes barely get in the money and that´s about it.
Unfortunately I removed most of my bankrolls online, and $+20 tournaments are not an option right now, until I get it built back up. But that´s not going to be a cakewalk if you have to put everyone on a HUGE range like that. (outside of the few exceptions)
So I´m at a loss right now as to what to do. Playing stupid like that is just no fun for me...I like to "think" while playing, and not gamble.
Any thoughts on this? Should I move to smaller sites (if the play is still halfway decent there)?
How far will this "trend" progress? Hellmuth used to complain a lot that Poker was becoming "just gambling without brains". I never worried, because I thought this would stay with the micros. But obviously not. It just keeps moving up.
Someone want to explain to me why going all-in with ANY pair would be +EV in a tournament? And when does playing TAG with that many players start to pay off again?
Kinda lost and worried about the game if you can´t buy-in for $50 or more.
"I don´t gamble, I play Poker" seems to be something from the past....
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6787
Go with the times. You can't influence the way other people play, and if they like to flip, they will do it. So either accept the higher variance by calling lighter, or move up where they respect your raises.
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
the poker world is full of idiots but your just having a tough run at it just now and maybe time to ajust and figure out a new strategy to combat it. Maybe open a new account on a new site just for a change see how it gos. I was running pretty crap on stars for a good while there and thought time to have a blast somewhere else see how it goes
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
First I always wounder why people play in fields of 2-3k, it is almost bound to be messy. People watch too much TV and see the hilight hands and think its OK to play that way, for some its the only way they can play, but never forget the long run. So what have you learnt? well you know the games you are playing have lots of guys willing to stack of with any PP, slightly lower your range and and play your odds, if you continue to play them games you will have to gamble now and then, do it to your advantage.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by B1gfoot: First I always wounder why people play in fields of 2-3k, it is almost bound to be messy. People watch too much TV and see the hilight hands and think its OK to play that way, for some its the only way they can play, but never forget the long run. So what have you learnt? well you know the games you are playing have lots of guys willing to stack of with any PP, slightly lower your range and and play your odds, if you continue to play them games you will have to gamble now and then, do it to your advantage.
Been trying.... These fields were tough enough when people played better, but now they´re insane! Best I´ve done is win a 5.000 runner one on PS and 3.500 on FT. The rush when coming in first with that many players is great. And that´s why I like it. I get the feeling the game has been taken away from me, and forcing me always to higher limits. $10 was still decent Poker 3-4 months back, if I remember correctly.
@Flipped
I have PKR ready, just need to deposit. Maybe I´ll do that this week for a change of pace, like you said.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1660
I realized now after reading this thread that you're talking more about a long term trend than just today's losses, so sorry if I trivialized your question on the other post. I don't play big MTT's like that (except freerolls of course) because I don't think my strategy is good enough. I like the advice about changing sites though, couldn't hurt to get a new subset of players
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by Arithmajik: I realized now after reading this thread that you're talking more about a long term trend than just today's losses, so sorry if I trivialized your question on the other post. I don't play big MTT's like that (except freerolls of course) because I don't think my strategy is good enough. I like the advice about changing sites though, couldn't hurt to get a new subset of players
IMPORTANT !!!
I hope everyone understood that i AM talking about a long-term trend. The steadily increasing number of players online is creating more agressive play IMO, and the game is turning into more of a "coinflip" game rather than "thinking" and "strategy" Poker.
Going all-in is easy...one decision. Playing after the flop takes skill, and that´s what Poker is all about for me. People shy away from the post-flop process because decisions become difficult, and people are just too lazy in general to learn a game properly.
So simple rules become the norm: All-in with any pair. All-in with A7+
Simple. But NOT Poker by any stretch of the imagination.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6787
Yep. Sign of the times. 6bet all-in with A6o? Of cause! But it is no surprise, look at the "famous" players. Durrrr? An aggrotard. Isildur? An aggrotard.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Spain
Age: 60 (M)
Posts: 2851
Posted by shokaku: Yep. Sign of the times. 6bet all-in with A6o? Of cause! But it is no surprise, look at the "famous" players. Durrrr? An aggrotard. Isildur? An aggrotard.
You have a point. First time I see that term "aggrotard". Funny.
But at the lower levels we seem to be getting 1.500 aggrotards out of 2.500 players in a Tourney. That leads to a huge "gambling" mess IMO.
Joined: Apr '11
Location: Romania
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 6669
I guess thisis the bad part of online poker, there are more players online and the game can be profitable but on the other hand you have all type of maniacs that are playing and they understand poker as bingo
This is why i started to pot limit omaha and now i only play pot limit omaha, firstly maniacs can't go all in preflop since it's a pot limit game, and even that they raise preflop they rarely hit the flop but they continue to bet lol
I think with this type of maniacs that are hitting the online tables more and more the limit games will develop faster, this is my personal opinion, and i think plo is becoming the most played game pretty soon.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
I think the trend will continue if the number of players remains the same in each site. And it will get worst i believe if they get more players. Moving to a smaller site where you can find your game types you like isnt a bad idea
I have to agree with you, that's what online poker has become. That's why I play more live nowadays! But anyway you must still have a hard time folding 10-10, J-J, Q-Q, AK or even AQ suited pre flop against this kind of player. Personally I adjust to them and play a larger range like its AA or KK, but unless Im short stacked, I never shove with 9s or less. I also agree with other people saying that moving to a site with less players can be a good idea, the bigger the site the more fishes there are. And everyone knows fishes are good at sucking out
Anyway, good luck to you, I wish more players would think like you, small stakes poker would be much more fun!
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Portugal
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 233
Very interesting post !
But I think that allinners exist since the begining of mankind. Today with more players, we have more allinners. sometimes at the first hand of a mtt is best to fold AK or KK because if you get 3 or 4 allinners your chances are not very good. But leave them alone for 4 or 5 hands and they will eat themselves. The survivors will change their way of playing and try to play poker.
I don't know about higher levels, I can't play there, but if your BR allows, why not to try ?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 54 (M)
Posts: 217
Posted by IslandJack: How far will this "trend" progress?
These strategies worked out well for the former FTP Freerolls No, for sure - these guys tilted me far too often and not long ago I was one of them ... but it will never end.
The points system in the Pokerstars Skill League is a good idea to work against that. Ok, it is just for this special league concept but I really like that attempt. I am playing the PS Poker League now since they started their new format and in the first levels it is still hard to keep the faith. People are still playing _any two_ cards and it needs nerves to survive such a donkfest. But the key is that most of them wont make it into the profitable area of the overall leaderboard where the patience of the skill oriented players will be paid in dollars. I believe this will "educate" some of the wild gamblers. Well, that´s not a trend, just an example how pokerrooms could regulate that, especially in combination with a free to join pokerschool.
On the other hand there really is a trend for gambling and pokerrooms do contribute to that, too . I see more and more of these "AI Every Hand" games at different sites. Although I wonder why even a "gambler" with a normal working brain should participate at those ones. At PKR for instance they are offering such a 16 players HU lottery - buyin including rake is 1.58 Dollars and first to second gets 12 Dollars each - got it? Hehe, happy bankroll shrinking.
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 1242
I cannot compare todays Poker to former times, beacause I only play since Februar this year. Maybe this is an advantage for me, that I grow up with todays playing style.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
I have started playing bigger MTTs recently for the first time in a while, and I noticed the same thing Jack. In one tournament with 300 people I got AA pretty early on, raised SUBSTANTIALLY preflop, got two callers, my remaining chips was equal to the pot so allin on the flop, and both called with absolute trash! I was happy to triple up but wondering what the hell they were thinking. Although I see a fair amount of donk play at micro level 6 person SNG, I find I can play around these aggrotards more easily than wading through a field of thousands of donks who think any two suited cards are great, cause eventually one of them is gonna hit...
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
Well as mentioned above it has a lot to do with the number of players during the years. As the number of players increases the game changes too. You are playing different in a tourney for example that has 100 entrants than one that has 2k. Amongst the increasing number of players also there are more donkies coming in. Of course that goes for tournies mostly and low buy ins in ring games. Cause i hardly believe the game play in high stakes has changed during the years.
