Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
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You get headsup after a raise, reraise and a call.
Flop comes down something like A 10 6
He raises, I reraise, he shoves, I shove. I hold A 10 , he flips over A 8
The odds are 3:1 in my favour, and even with trips like a flopped set KKK against these flush draws its more like 4:1.
Yet these aggrodonkers love to just shove it and often seem to win, although long term its a -EV play. It shows a total lack of ability as they don't want to play poker, just to shove and hope to get lucky. Sometimes you get trapped in a hand and think screw it...fine sometimes. This isn't even OESD+FL draws.
Just an observation. If I know someone is likely to do this I still have to call as the odds are too good for me, but it is the last kind of draw you want them to be on with 9 outs as opposed to say 3 for trips or something.
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
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Posted by noonlion: \ The odds are 3:1 in my favour, and even with trips like a flopped set KKK against these flush draws its more like 4:1.
Actually, the odds are 2:1 in your favour (~34% vs ~64% - and ~2% to tie)
Anyway - in heads up poker, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with shoving top pair + nut FD. In fact, it's usually the correct move.. Calling with it is a trickier decision, although it's still often the right decision in HU poker.
Joined: Mar '12
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted by jessthehuman:
Posted by noonlion: \ The odds are 3:1 in my favour, and even with trips like a flopped set KKK against these flush draws its more like 4:1.
Actually, the odds are 2:1 in your favour (~34% vs ~64% - and ~2% to tie)
Anyway - in heads up poker, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with shoving top pair + nut FD. In fact, it's usually the correct move.. Calling with it is a trickier decision, although it's still often the right decision in HU poker.
I do it myself as well sometimes. But this was in a tournament, which made it even more annoying. I guess it committed me in the pot and he still had 2k left behind if he failed to nail it.
But there's no thought process involved - does he think I have AQ or something? I guess some idiots are insta shoving ai there with AJ+ in my spot. But these guys don't think.
Joined: Feb '13
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How do you know there is no though process going on here?
How do you know that he hasn't looked at it, seen that he has top pair, nut flush draw and also runner runner straight chance, calced the odds and believe he is way ahead?
How do you know what he has put you on in your hand?
And did YOU put any thought process into calling with two pair?
Joined: Mar '12
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Posted by IceQueenAce: How do you know there is no though process going on here?
How do you know that he hasn't looked at it, seen that he has top pair, nut flush draw and also runner runner straight chance, calced the odds and believe he is way ahead?
How do you know what he has put you on in your hand?
And did YOU put any thought process into calling with two pair?
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
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Preflop is questionable, but heads up the chips will go in, if both players hit the flop that hard like in this hand. I can't see any aggrodonk play here.
It's when they do it with 9,2 off and hit big that it gets my goat. (I do hope they are looking after it properly. You know, milking it regularly and so on......)
Joined: Mar '12
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For a start 4x raising with it was terrible. If I hadn't been on the button I wouldn't have called. Then I hit two pair on the flop and reraise a flop raise by him - so wtf does he think I have? King high? The chances are if I'm calling a big preflop bet, it's not with A7 or less. It's not a terrible play at all, but it's like a snap decision for some people. At the very least I could be expected to have AQ+, still beating him before the river. He risked going from 8k top stack to 2k bottom stack on a draw. Early stages I agree, I'm probably doing it fairly often but at this stage it doesn't really make sense.
However, in retrospect he was the biggest stack at the FT (6ppl) by 2k on me, the second stack, and maybe I should have called instead of reraising the flop. That way I see a spade and shut down, but I'm essentially pot committed also, so even doing that makes little sense.
It's one of those 'moves' that either works out beautifully or doesn't. It has it's place - but why risk a tournament unless you're an idiot?
What were starting stacks, blinds, antes, and raise sizes?
------------ Not that it's really that important top 2 v. top pair and nut flush draw it's all going in unless your 100+ bb deep and it's the main event. You got it in good you can't really complain your 2-1 favourite. Personally i'm not reraising the flop it just folds out his air, and weak holdings.
Joined: May '08
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maybe a bit late here, but i have to say that u both weren't holding real premium hands (like my beloved 26o), so all the raise-reraise-call before the flop wasn't a very +ev move imo...after the flop i see no problem with someone going all in holding a top pair + nut flush draw...not saying it's very wise, but it's a lot better than the 37o going all in pre-flop
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