Joined: Nov '14
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 9
I usually play lower stake SnG games $5 but recently have been finding I'm getting more and more bad beats with ridiculous calls when I am holding monster hands AA, AK, KK etc. when the villain hits flushes, straights etc from a poor starting hand. I have played a few higher stake games $30 & $60 SnG in the last couple of nights and did pretty well in them a 1st and 2nd with a profit of about $200 overall. My question is, should I stay at this level even though it is technically too rich for my bankroll, or should I persevere at the lower stakes even though I feel I am getting too many bad beats??
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
A tough question.... The point is, that at the lower limits you will get more bad calls - and that should be a good thing. In the long run, it certainly will be... but short term it can be very frustrating.
Moving up the limits will reduce the amount of bad beats (or at least, is likely to...) but will mean that natural variance can rob you of your entire bankroll in no time.
I would suggest you stay at the lower limits, and just assure yourself that the bad beats won't go on forever - and even if they do, with good bankroll management and superior ability, you will overcome them... and gradually move up.
Joined: Sep '10
Location: Australia
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 227
Posted by KillieDan: I have played a few higher stake games $30 & $60 SnG in the last couple of nights and did pretty well in them a 1st and 2nd with a profit of about $200 overall.
Hello KillieDan, I am finding the same lately, i got beat with KK and he head 3-7 off suit and bloody hit a flush ( 4 diamonds in the center) who the hell would go all in with his hand in the middle stages of a game.Anyway I am a risk taker so i dont know if my advice will help but with you above post you finished 1st and 2nd with a nice profit, therefor even if the stakes are higher and you are confident enough to play the same in higher stakes why not continue there.
------------
Posted by yout85: A tough question....
Hey yout85 I think you spot on with it mate, it is a tough question
Posted by yout85: A tough question.... The point is, that at the lower limits you will get more bad calls - and that should be a good thing. In the long run, it certainly will be... but short term it can be very frustrating.
Moving up the limits will reduce the amount of bad beats (or at least, is likely to...) but will mean that natural variance can rob you of your entire bankroll in no time.
I would suggest you stay at the lower limits, and just assure yourself that the bad beats won't go on forever - and even if they do, with good bankroll management and superior ability, you will overcome them... and gradually move up.
Good luck with whatever you decide
+1
The thing is, we all wonder if, when moving up levels, we might find a game that is more suited to our playing style. The fact is however, that in general, there will be better players in higher levels, so on average you will have a worse win rate.
Joined: May '13
Location: Mauritius
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 2688
Start at the bottom and grind your way up depending on your bankroll but if you new yes you have to start at the bottom to get used with the swings as when you new you might tilt different ways like playing with scare money as you do not have the bankroll to do the +eve action and fear you will lose money! Anyway good luck mate hope you make money from SNG, it is a gold mine at the lower level as it is easy to get good ROI!
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1410
Posted by marqis:
Posted by yout85: A tough question.... The point is, that at the lower limits you will get more bad calls - and that should be a good thing. In the long run, it certainly will be... but short term it can be very frustrating.
Moving up the limits will reduce the amount of bad beats (or at least, is likely to...) but will mean that natural variance can rob you of your entire bankroll in no time.
I would suggest you stay at the lower limits, and just assure yourself that the bad beats won't go on forever - and even if they do, with good bankroll management and superior ability, you will overcome them... and gradually move up.
Good luck with whatever you decide
+1
The thing is, we all wonder if, when moving up levels, we might find a game that is more suited to our playing style. The fact is however, that in general, there will be better players in higher levels, so on average you will have a worse win rate.
Sometimes the winrate shouldn't mean everything. Say for example that you make a ROI of 120 at the $1 games, that means that for every game 100 games, you'll make $20 profit. But at the $10 level you have a ROI of only 105, that means that for every 100 games, you'll make $50 profit.
Bottom line is, lower winrate, or ROI, won't necessarily mean that you're not earning more money at the higher stakes. As long as you can have a ROI that gives you more profit then you would have had at the lower stakes, you're good to go.
However, you also have to keep in mind that the variance will surely give you a harder blow if you don't have as good ROI. But that's just short term. the important thing to remember is that the ROI for a certain stake should include the downswings meaning that you'll get an average of what you should be earning for every 100 games.
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 59 (M)
Posts: 6786
Keep mostly at the lower level, but take shots at the higher games. If you continue to run good there, you can take more and more shots, untill you can switch completely. If you start to run bad at the higher level, you can fall back to the lower one.
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 47 (F)
Posts: 14136
yout has covered it nicely. If you dont have the bankroll for higher limits dont go for it. All it takes is a few bad beats, or downswing to leave you with nothing. You will have more chances at the limits you are playing now to overcome this. Many players after a big bad swing even lowering the limits, either to blow some steam, or to gain more money, to get them on their feet again and continue playing at their desired levels.
Joined: Nov '14
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 9
Cheers everyone for all their input. I think I will stay at the lower levels and give the higher games a shot every once in a while until I feel ready to move. Just subscribed to this site and very impressed with the advice given. Hopefully will help me make a profit in this game I have loved and hated in equal measures over the years!
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by KillieDan: I usually play lower stake SnG games $5 but recently have been finding I'm getting more and more bad beats with ridiculous calls when I am holding monster hands AA, AK, KK etc. when the villain hits flushes, straights etc from a poor starting hand. I have played a few higher stake games $30 & $60 SnG in the last couple of nights and did pretty well in them a 1st and 2nd with a profit of about $200 overall. My question is, should I stay at this level even though it is technically too rich for my bankroll, or should I persevere at the lower stakes even though I feel I am getting too many bad beats??
Your post has shown that you shouldn't be playing $30+ SNGs even with a $1M bankroll. Really, it would be a waste of money over the long run.
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 67 (M)
Posts: 3361
Ah straight to the point there Bemyatmplz . you're probably right though,you usually are. Killiedan i think you should take his advice and stay on the lower limits ( at least for now ) gl at the tables anyway.
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Didn't want to come off offencise, but the 1st post in this thread has shown there's very limited knowledge about the overall game (which is not bad at all, it can all be learned, however most fail at the point of being willing to). If you (KillieDan) think you can determine if a specific stake is right for you after just 2 games then this shows that you're not ready to play these. Even some professional players hardly breakeven at these before rakeback, after probably hundreds (if not more) of hours of studying poker in their life, and there's def. more behind it than being just a good player (being a good poker player doesn't automaticly make you a good SNG player, and the other way around too, you can be a good SNG player with relativly limited poker skills (especially postflop) (latter probably applies to me )
I'd suggest you to withdraw some of your winnings from this shot and/or to invest it in a subscription for a training site that offers training videos for your game of choice.
Joined: Nov '14
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 9
I don't think I said I had only played 2 games, said I had came 1st and 2nd after playing a few games at higher level over a couple of nights. I've actually played thousands of hands over the years and although I've won the odd tournament for a few hundred quid here and there, on the whole I am a losing player. Was just looking for advice as I am in profit at the higher stakes and losing at lower stakes.
Joined: Oct '11
Location: Sweden
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1410
Since you're a losing player over all, you really shouldn't pay that much attention to your results on the higher stakes, it's most likely a temporary thing. Keep playing there and you'll be losing there as well, big time!
what you should do is maybe even lowering your stake EVEN MORE and really get working on finding out where your leaks are. I'm a winning player but I'm by far not perfect, I have tons of leaks in my game. So there's always room for improvements.
The most important thing is, I would say, making sure that you are absolutely certain that you're beating the level you're currently on before moving up.
The best advise I can give you is this: Withdraw a huge amount of your bankroll, put it in a savings account and let the interest grow it for you wile you keep, say, 100 BI's for the lowest stake in your roll and then you hit the tables, read books, watch videos. Make sure you play at least 1000 games at that stake, calculate your ROI to determine if you're beating that stake. For a so small sample as 1000 games, I would recommend moving up in stakes only if your ROI is at least 110 or more. That way you can be sure you're beating that level. Next, take a look at the stake above you, see what you have in your bankroll and calculate if you have 100 BI's for that level or not. If you do, repeat what you did at the lowest stake. If not, then you could deposit some of what you've stashed away in your savings account to compensate your bankroll and reach that 100 BI mark. Keep doing this for every level you're at. Eventually, you'll find a level where you're ROI isn't more then basically break even, then you've reached your limit. Stick to that limit and practice a lot, try to identify what you're doing wrong. Keep at it until you beat that stake and then move up. If you suffer a big downswing, move down and rebuild your bankroll.
I know that it seems like much work but in my opinion, that's the best way you can go to find out where you should be playing and also to protect what you have already earned from those higher stakes.
Trust me on this one, a losing player at lower stakes are in 99,99% of the cases a losing player at the higher stakes. But if you're willing to risk it thinking that you might be that 0,01% then be prepared to lose your entire bankroll, it most likely will happen eventually!
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Germany
Age: 31 (M)
Posts: 1859
Posted by KillieDan:
Was just looking for advice as I am in profit at the higher stakes and losing at lower stakes.
The only reason for this is variance, or luck deviation. No offence but thousands of hands is no samplesize, I play that every day when I play. Over 2 games, or even 50 games, you could be profiting even if you have a worse skill level than the opposition. Winning a SNG here and there at higher stakes doesn't make you a winning player, in fact, the odds of being losing over the games afterwards will be even more likely since as you won in the recent games you have ran over your true adjusted luck.
Erru has given some very good advice and has grown a very good sense for the game and all things related in the last couple of weeks, take him as example.
Joined: Nov '14
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 51 (M)
Posts: 9
Played another few 18 handed SnGs for $7 and again busted out early. Played a couple of $30 ones and came 2nd in one for $150. Up $70 for the night. If its luck I'll enjoy it while it lasts! Cheers for the advice, I'll let you know when it goes Pete Tong!
Joined: Nov '11
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 67 (M)
Posts: 3361
Posted by KillieDan: Played another few 18 handed SnGs for $7 and again busted out early. Played a couple of $30 ones and came 2nd in one for $150. Up $70 for the night. If its luck I'll enjoy it while it lasts! Cheers for the advice, I'll let you know when it goes Pete Tong!
Joined: May '12
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 38 (M)
Posts: 2064
I think the point Killie was making in the first post wasn't "I've won a couple of high buy ins, but lose at the low ones, does this mean I should just play high buy ins?"... I would say it was more to the point of "I seem to be getting unlucky a lot in the lower buy ins, but have less bad luck in the higher ones... is this down to my style of play, and the style of the opponents, and is it sustainable and therefore should I play more higher buy ins and less lower?"
The answer to which is... maybe you will do better in the long run at the higher buy ins, as your playing style may just be better suited to it - but without the required bankroll - the long run will not happen. First downswing... which WILL happen, and you're done.
Rise fast and risk falling all the way to the bottom. Rise slowly and steadily and it's much more likely to be sustainable.
)
