I've been playing on FT for some time but i am noticing more and more weird goings on. Some of the hands that are dealt are just plain bonkers and it does look like the theories of "Action Flops" etc are valid. I was on the button dealt 1010,the small blind was dealt QQ,the BB KK and the UTG JJ. What are the chances? Also with more and more regularity what would once prove to be winning hands are turning in to really bad losing hands, 2 pairs and sets being constantly beaten by straights and flushes. I've had my 20 outers beaten so often by 2 outers and my sets beaten by so many runner runner straight draws that i no longer feel confident betting on any of my good hands. In fact i would say my rubbish hands have more chances of winning. Yes i have thought about playing in reverse - playing what looks like garbage and folding things like AA,KK which are getting slaughtered. I am not a whinger whiner look at my bad beats kinda person i am quite simply astounded by the number of crazy outcomes at the FT tables and wonder if anyone else is feeling the same and/or noticing. Yesterday i was pushed all in my hand was AK and the flop was 27A. After the flop the other player pushed all in (1650 chips) so i thought ok he had 39. I wasn't even remotely concerned BUT he got a 9 on the turn and a 9 on the river. Please don't tell me you wouldn't be a little perplexed. This has been how my whole week has been and i'm seriously NOT exaggerating. I often hope that the maniac players will grow up and start having a proper game(obviously not in the space of one game) but i think with action like that which takes place on FT tables why should they? For myself i am hoping that a change to a more grown up site will improve things. I was considering PKR or Pokerstars but i suspect the exact same things will happen here as the mentality seems to be about the same. Crazy luck chasers. I play a good game,a solid game i cannot fault the hands i play or the way i play them, most of the time, but i'm still getting scant reward.Thats not to say on my own part that i'm the best player but you can't learn to be better on a site that goes against everything you've ever been taught permitting rubbish players who chase anything everything and nothing in to the winning position.
I am not putting one more penny,or cent, in to FT coffers and i'm from this day forward going to actively discourage friends,family and associates, ANYONE,from putting their funds in there too. Unless an UltimateBet scenario unfolds we will never know the truth behind any of the sites and what actions they take but it's a nonsense to say a site couldn't benefit from ripping of it's clients or that they couldn't action in bad deals as more than one person would have to know and they'd be open to bribery.In the latter scenario not if you paid them enough or they were otherwise invested and for the former any argument would be pointless of course there's plenty of benefit for ripping people off.
I look forward to your input on this issue. Please try to refrain from being nasty. I'm repeat i'm not whining about this merely asking if others have noticed and what your feelings are about it. I for one have no real investment in FT or it's future.
I feel for you on this one, but I to have noticed strange goings on with the cards at FT. Playing in the tourneys and noticing how many times the person with the most ammount of chips gets a lot of winning hands. When faced with an all-in preflop, I allways think twice and check, does he have more chips than me, if so, doesnt matter how good my hand is, I fold, because time and time again, chip leader seems to have the upper hand. Maybe it is to wipe out players quickly, so they will go and find another tourney and give them more money, I dont know. I have learnt to take time-out from a site when it happens.
Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 1086
You certainly wont be the first person to stop playing at a site because you think it's dodgy, I for one have never had any problems with FT, I've had some crazy downswings which made me question the poker gods but never any EVIDENCE to prove they were going out of their way to screw me.
Joined: Nov '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2194
Hmmm hard one if you feel that there is something going on its hard to get in to a game as your watching for any signs rather than playing your poker game. Its difficalt when you getting a poor run on the cards but it doesnt make sence for the site to mess about with the cards as with all the Ulimate bet crap every site will be getting looked at in more detail. Try switching site if it makes you feel better. You say you have played at fulltilt for a while thou so dont give up on a whim.. Is the luck always for the other players? Could you get away from the hands? i mean it could make you a better player if the re is a straight / boat possibility on the board and your holding trips then it would be a good fold....
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
Posts: 1886
Sorry but i think you're being silly. No poker site could get away with fixing cards or making certain outcomes more likely. There have been several threads and discussions on the internet but this action flop theory has been proved rubbish time and time again. It does not make sense for poker sites to fix their cards. It takes more effort to program this than to give all players an equal chance and there's no way that it can be proved to be in their interest either way to have lots of bad players sucking out, or very few bad players winning.
Your imagination is making you see things that are not true. We notice things which are unusual. And you must understand that every time you log in you have the same chance of a bad beat occurring. And because probability does not distribute 'luck' equally, it is likely that one in a hundred people will receive far more than their share of bad beats. It would be odd if everyone experienced the same amount of lucky hands. Therefore you cannot take just your experiences until now to say that a site is fixed.
I would also note that if you play at fulltilt a lot you will have noticed more odd hands. If you'd played somewhere else for the same amount of time, the chances are you would come across a similar situation.
Joined: Nov '07
Location: Belgium
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 1289
It comes all down to a very bad run. Everyone experiences that, noobs, Average and Pro's
I had the same a while ago I lost over 11K in a week. I just didnt hit anything at all, or missed all draws, or got outdrawn. How skilled U are? I cannot determine, but even the most skilled players on the planet need some luck or need the right cards, or even have to dodge alot of flips against opponents.
U better just walk away from it, and return within a couple days. No need to shut down FT in this case for good.
If u run hotter then the sun, expect some backfiring at some point. It always happens, then its just a matter of SKILL how to control your tiltlevel.
Joined: Jul '09
Location: France
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 17
according to me , the answer is amount of Donk players.
I begin poker at IPN network , full of donk , 4 outs on the flop, most of players will raise you all-in. The result is easy , the more donk in a network , the more your AA,KK etc ... will be knocked out by shity hands.
Then i moved to Fulltilt , and the level is obviously better, there are less donks ,it's a fact, imo you can't find a better room if you hate donks , i have try so many network , i can tell you any limits you play fulltilt is just the best.
Joined: Dec '07
Location: Australia
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 186
Posted by JKLB888: I've been playing on FT for some time but i am noticing more and more weird goings on. Some of the hands that are dealt are just plain bonkers and it does look like the theories of "Action Flops" etc are valid. I was on the button dealt 1010,the small blind was dealt QQ,the BB KK and the UTG JJ. What are the chances?
Chances are small, but these do happen... I've seen it happen numerous times online, as well as live. It's all about the element of chance...
Posted by JKLB888: Also with more and more regularity what would once prove to be winning hands are turning in to really bad losing hands, 2 pairs and sets being constantly beaten by straights and flushes. I've had my 20 outers beaten so often by 2 outers and my sets beaten by so many runner runner straight draws that i no longer feel confident betting on any of my good hands. In fact i would say my rubbish hands have more chances of winning.
it does happen... if you play lower volume - you are more likely to get very upset by this... however, if you play larger volume, these bad beats and suckouts won't affect your win rate that much (assuming you're a solid player, and you say you are) yeah, there will be downturns and upswings, but long term is the key...
Posted by JKLB888: Yes i have thought about playing in reverse - playing what looks like garbage and folding things like AA,KK which are getting slaughtered.
personally, i think that would be just silly...
Posted by JKLB888: Yesterday i was pushed all in my hand was AK and the flop was 27A. After the flop the other player pushed all in (1650 chips) so i thought ok he had 39. I wasn't even remotely concerned BUT he got a 9 on the turn and a 9 on the river.
you probably heard this before... "move up to the level where they respect your raises"... (if you can afford, of course)
i'm just saying that you'll find idiots everywhere, but fewer of them as you move up... i don't think you'll find many callers with 3-9 "pushing you all-in" on NL50 up.
anyway - good luck! and give up and don't let those suckouts get to you
Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6483
Posted by JKLB888: I am not putting one more penny,or cent, in to FT coffers and i'm from this day forward going to actively discourage friends,family and associates, ANYONE,from putting their funds in there too. Unless an UltimateBet scenario unfolds we will never know the truth behind any of the sites and what actions they take but it's a nonsense to say a site couldn't benefit from ripping of it's clients or that they couldn't action in bad deals as more than one person would have to know and they'd be open to bribery.In the latter scenario not if you paid them enough or they were otherwise invested and for the former any argument would be pointless of course there's plenty of benefit for ripping people off.
I don't see how you can compare this to the UB scenario... That was an instance of a person cheating, using a super account, to see hole cards. The room wasn't rigged, just someone cheating.. But card fixing (action flops,etc) hardly makes much sense and is very unlikely to the point of being pure fantasy.
If you play enough online poker, in the end, you're gonna see it all. AA & KK deal side by side 5 times in a row, river giving one person quads, another a straight flush, etc etc. Just the way it is.
On a side note: I play quite a bit of live poker as well and honestly, all this stuff happens in those live games as well lol.
Fact is, card deck is only 52 cards and there's only 13 different numbers in each suit. So the reality is 1-outers, pocket pairs, etc really aren't all that unlikely.
Let's say you're all-in against one other person with hole cards up and board dealt up to (inc) turn: this means there's 4 known hole cards and 4 community. So 8 known cards altogether, this means 44 left in deck as possibility on river. Let's say you're the fav with only one card to save your opponent. They have a 1 in 44 chance of hitting. That's a bit over 2% - which isn't that unlikely and shouldn't blow anyones mind if it happens and if you play enough hands you'll see it happen plenty.
I know this isn't directly you're situation I'm just saying when you take the MILLIONS of people playing MILLIONS of hands of online poker every single day of course some of those people are gonna witness some freak s**t happen.
In a city of a million people, one persons experiences the million-to-one every day.
