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  20-Jan-12, 21:59   #1
Why fold when you can check? 0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Every now and then, I come across someone that folds their hand at the turn or river, while they can just call for free. Why would anyone do that?

It happens too often to be explained simply by mis-clicking, because the software displays a warning message when you do, informing you that you can check instead...

The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...

     
  20-Jan-12, 22:05   #2
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
Posted by marqis:
Every now and then, I come across someone that folds their hand at the turn or river, while they can just call for free. Why would anyone do that?

It happens too often to be explained simply by mis-clicking, because the software displays a warning message when you do, informing you that you can check instead...

The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...



Exactly!

You answered your own question. Big Smile
I do it once in a while, depending on the table/tournament etc.

Mostly low "sneaky" hands which can´t win on that board anyways.

     
  20-Jan-12, 22:06   #3
  0 
cuirtom 

Joined: Mar '09
Location: Romania
Age: 29 (M)
Posts: 43
Posted by marqis:
The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...

thats it! Thumbs Up i do this when ii dont hit the flush/str8 on river,and preflop paid a huge river...is better this way...because after one/two situation like that a bluff should work fine!!! Big Smile Cool

     
  20-Jan-12, 22:07   #4
  0 
GomerAssassi 
Joined: Jul '11
Location: Canada
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 151
I think ya answered your own question. Yaay!!!!!

I like to fold my small pocket pairs when the board dominates ya. e.g. JKJK_

Edited by GomerAssassi (Friday, January 20, 2012 @ 22:13 GMT)


     
  20-Jan-12, 22:15   #5
  0 
awood88 
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 28 (M)
Posts: 1881
Posted by marqis:
The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...


That is the only reason. But it can be a very valid reason if you have absolutely no chance of getting the pot. I mean it is instantly obvious that you have absolutely no hand if you turn down the check but your opponents don't get to see what kind of drawing hand you will call with or if you bluffed without a drawing hand.

Then again if you fold you don't get to see your opponent's hand either. I seem to remember a hand where my opponent open-folded it to me even though I had missed my draw too.

You get even more of this unforced folding playing live. Sometimes someone will fold on a missed flop when they can check. It kind of makes sense if you know a bet is coming and don't want to be tempted into getting involved but you also have to think they are throwing away chances.


     
  20-Jan-12, 22:33   #6
  0 
Doberhain 

Joined: Mar '11
Location: Germany
Age: 46 (M)
Posts: 217
in a multiway pot one could fold right away to pass advantage to another spot, hoping to get the chips later on at better circumstances.

     
  20-Jan-12, 23:22   #7
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by IslandJack:
Posted by marqis:

The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...



Exactly!


Yeah - I am pretty sure that is it. However - it's kind of self-defeating, because when somebody folds their hand for free, you have a pretty good idea of what their "range" is haha.

Also - sometimes I think it's less about strategy and more about people just being embarrassed to go to showdown because they're a fish. Particularly since it tends to be the fish who do this.

Also - there's been plenty of times for me when this has happened and I've either had a very low holding (6 high or something) or I cannot beat the board (split at best). I sometimes like to show my cards when I scoop the pot in these situations.

------------
Posted by awood88:

You get even more of this unforced folding playing live.



That is very true - which brings me back to my "embarrassed" argument.

Not that there isn't some merit in open folding. I've thought about it a few times - ultimately I think it is -EV. Basically, to see whether it is +/- EV you need to weigh up the equity lost from spilt pots or even pots you would have won when facing somebody else on a lower draw. VS Equity gained from not giving away information.

I think to really valuate equity gained from not giving away information, you need to consider just how much attention people are paying at your stakes.. If you're playing under nl200 or so, I can pretty well guarantee people are majority on level-1 thinking - that is, they're thinking about their own cards/hand - and not really thinking that much about your image, much less your 'range'. Particularly if they're multi-tabling. I think you're probably just giving away equity at the micros..

The other thing to remember, is the showdown rules, if you weren't last to bet, then you're better off checking - because then the last to raise has to show their cards and if you're hand isn't better you can muck your cards any how, without showing.

Edited by jessthehuman (Friday, January 20, 2012 @ 23:29 GMT)


     
  21-Jan-12, 00:05   #8
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
What Jess says is correct, but...

It is definitely +EV when you decide to go into a pot in late, or big stack early even (on an active limping table) holding 38o for example, and you are portraying a "tight" image at the table.

With the table changes in a tournament, that can play a role on a particular table.

You definitely DO NOT want to show them that you will see a flop with garbage like that.
OR.... maybe you do, but then you are portraying a very different image.

I almost never do it, unless the case specified above. Blink

Edit:
I don´t play cash, different game.
And I would never do it with only me and someone else in the pot for the reasons that Jess describes.

Edited by IslandJack (Saturday, January 21, 2012 @ 00:09 GMT)


     
  21-Jan-12, 01:54   #9
  0 
Greenmohave 

Joined: Jan '11
Location: United States
Age: 52 (M)
Posts: 3361
In some cases there isn't always a "Pop-up" providing a message to be sure you want to fold when one can actually check. Sometimes being to fast on the button in some money games when the "Pop-up" doesn't show and if you already checked the "Fold" then tha's what happens, an accidental fold.

Only reason I know I'm one of those dummies that has done this and, more then once wishing I didn't. Good question!

     
  21-Jan-12, 01:58   #10
  0 
jessthehuman 

Joined: Apr '09
Location: Australia
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 6441
Posted by IslandJack:
...And I would never do it with only me and someone else in the pot ...


This is a good point actually - the equity you lose by open-folding is significantly reduced in multi-way pots and this certainly promotes the argument for the open-fold.

     
  21-Jan-12, 05:48   #11
  0 
Arithmajik 

Joined: Feb '11
Location: Canada
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 1568
Sounds like everyone agrees on the rationale, one other thing worth mentioning is that even if the person you're playing against has a feel for what you threw away at the very least his software if any will have no clue. Never hurts to reduce data mining.

     
  21-Jan-12, 10:33   #12
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 2367
One other thing to consider is that the person is an absolute beginner. My wife plays like this sometimes, she is chasing a flush, her opponent checks on the river and since she missed she folds, but she doesn't play too often.

     
  21-Jan-12, 11:59   #13
  0 
etna2007 

Joined: Jan '08
Location: Denmark
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 481
I do that on rare occasions if we are 3 people in the pot etc, and i know i cant take the pot down. Reason is, i want to let them know i dont have anything so they dont have to play scared, i like them to fight for the pot and one of them might bust.

     
  21-Jan-12, 12:40   #14
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
Posted by etna2007:
I do that on rare occasions if we are 3 people in the pot etc, and i know i cant take the pot down. Reason is, i want to let them know i dont have anything so they dont have to play scared, i like them to fight for the pot and one of them might bust.


Damn!
Never even thought of that.

Very interesting point which I´ll have to think about some more when the occasion presents itself.
Nice...

     
  21-Jan-12, 12:41   #15
  0 
pochui 

Joined: May '08
Location: Lithuania
Age: 32 (M)
Posts: 8653
Posted by IslandJack:
Posted by marqis:
Every now and then, I come across someone that folds their hand at the turn or river, while they can just call for free. Why would anyone do that?

It happens too often to be explained simply by mis-clicking, because the software displays a warning message when you do, informing you that you can check instead...

The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...



Exactly!

You answered your own question. Big Smile
I do it once in a while, depending on the table/tournament etc.

Mostly low "sneaky" hands which can't win on that board anyways.


spot on- usually you do not want to show the table the garbage you were playing with, or earlier in the hand you maybe even tried to bluff, but you got callers, and now you just want to get rid of poor holdings without any additional info being given away, or to avoid laughs...though i was in a few funny situations where i was 3 high (had 23 suited) didnt hit anything, and the dude folded on after the river Big Smile

     
  21-Jan-12, 12:52   #16
  0 
IslandJack 

Joined: Oct '09
Location: Belgium
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 2847
Posted by pochui:
Posted by IslandJack:
Posted by marqis:
Every now and then, I come across someone that folds their hand at the turn or river, while they can just call for free. Why would anyone do that?

It happens too often to be explained simply by mis-clicking, because the software displays a warning message when you do, informing you that you can check instead...

The only reason I can think of is to not give any information, about the range of hands you play...



Exactly!

You answered your own question. Big Smile
I do it once in a while, depending on the table/tournament etc.

Mostly low "sneaky" hands which can't win on that board anyways.


spot on- usually you do not want to show the table the garbage you were playing with, or earlier in the hand you maybe even tried to bluff, but you got callers, and now you just want to get rid of poor holdings without any additional info being given away, or to avoid laughs...though i was in a few funny situations where i was 3 high (had 23 suited) didnt hit anything, and the dude folded on after the river Big Smile


lol

That´s funny. Big Smile

     
  21-Jan-12, 13:15   #17
  0 
SuperNoob 

Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 30 (M)
Posts: 4873
i open fold sometimes in multi-way pots when i'm sure i wont win anyways because
a) the reason etna mentioned
b) the reason mahdrof mentioned, many players think open fold -> beginner.
so people think i'm a fish Big Smile
c) sometimes when i'm studying on puter, i hav 0.01/0.02 table up for fun. when at big blind many times i end up in pots where i have 6-7 high, so dont wanna do those extra checks

     
  21-Jan-12, 14:57   #18
  0 
Mober 
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
Age: 39 (F)
Posts: 10045
That happens mostly from players when they have no luck on making others fold by bluffing for example and they dont want them to see with what crap they were in the hand Smile
Of course there always be some new players doing that.
Also it saves you time when you know how your opponents play and you have no way hitting a thing even after all 5 cards are on the table.
Of course there is no point folding on the river Smile
Thats simply stupid.

     
  21-Jan-12, 15:41   #19
  0 
DaCapo71 
Joined: Aug '10
Location: Germany
Age: 45 (M)
Posts: 1712
Call for free its only possible in playmoney games i think. And if you see that a player fold a hand where he can check than you now he´s on tilt. The best way here is to play slowly and you would see that the other guy makes donkmoves.

     
  21-Jan-12, 16:07   #20
  0 
marqis 

Joined: Sep '10
Location: Netherlands
Age: 48 (M)
Posts: 1631
Great answers to my question everyone; thanks!

I particularly like the points being raised by
- Etna, about stepping aside, so the others remaining in the pot might play more loosely
- Jess, about it being self-defeating, since everyone knows it's a crappy hand anyway
- Arithmajik, about statistics gathering software

Actually pochui's experience with taking down the pot, with 3 high, because the other guy open-folded, is almost exactly what happened to me, prompting me to ask this question...

     
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