Joined: Feb '08
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This is a qualifier for the WBCOOP on Pokerstars ... all the players are experienced players, not your average freerollers ! I would like to know if anyone thinks I misplayed the hand and what you would do on the turn and river here.
PokerStars Game #22983400663: Tournament #124189659, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/12/16 19:10:35 ET Table '124189659 64' 9-max Seat #7 is the button Seat 1: lesmurphy7 (2580 in chips) Seat 2: antnx (7670 in chips) Seat 3: acehighness (2460 in chips) Seat 4: deckcoll (2395 in chips) Seat 5: Pelica (2440 in chips) Seat 6: Lone Rhino (2500 in chips) Seat 7: DjFog86 (2440 in chips) Seat 8: schmengie (2435 in chips) Seat 9: Dur13l (2500 in chips) schmengie: posts small blind 15 Dur13l: posts big blind 30 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to acehighness lesmurphy7: folds antnx: folds acehighness: raises 45 to 75 deckcoll: calls 75 Pelica: folds Lone Rhino: folds DjFog86: folds schmengie: calls 60 Dur13l: folds *** FLOP *** schmengie: checks acehighness: bets 125 deckcoll: calls 125 schmengie: folds *** TURN *** acehighness: bets 210 deckcoll: raises 210 to 420
acehighness: ?????????????????????
So he minraises me on the turn .... what would you do and why ? If you decide to call, what would you do to a big bet on the river ?
Edited by acehighness (18 December 2008 @ 23:27 GMT)
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
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Definitely bigger raise preflop. If preflop looked like this then at least pot bet on flop. Im guessing guy had J Q . Maybe K -Q .
I don`t know how did the guy play previously but he could also be bluffing thinking you missed your AKoff. What would I do here, most likely fold but not too much info so it could be allin too. River action depends on what would river be and what did I do on turn. Hard to tell how someone plays based on stacks only.
I see that guy plays 42% R/A tournaments and that he is losing money overall, BUT he has most of his ITM finishes in freezeout tournaments which could mean that he actually has a hand there or at least nut flush draw with A -Q thinking you have AKoff. If that is the case, guy is not bluffing too much, definitely fold after raise.
Don`t forget to tell us how it ended, OK?
EDIT: sorry but I had to look at your stats too. It looks like you are doing better in sng tournaments than you do in mtt`s. Since you are playing on poker stars, practice your game in high buyin mtt playmoney tournaments, at least that is one thing that is undeniable at poker stars, people play those high buyin playmoney tournaments like they are for real. One can really get some good training in them.
Joined: May '08
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What are you doing? BB is 30 and you raise to 75??? 2,5 BB ??? Raise more preflop, 3-4 BB at least.
You only bet half the pot at the flop. To little in my oppinion.
If you get raised at the turn in such a situation one pair is rarely good. But you have shown so much weakness during the hand that your opponent might try to bet you out of your hand.
Posted by fochizza: Bigger raise preflop!! With such a small raise you can be up agenst anything including KQ. So basicly big raise preflop and a big bet on the flop.
Yes. You should make a standrd raise (4BB+Number of limpers*BB)
Joined: Feb '08
Location: Netherlands
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Ok, first of all, raising more pre flop is not necesarry. Do you guys raise 4x with all hands ? What are you trying to do ? Pick up the blinds ?
Do you only raise more with good hands ? Then you are giving away your hand. Like I said there are good players, they are not calling with any 2 cards just because it's 75. As you can see I only got 1 caller, plus the BB. Thats exactly what I wanted... I wanted some action on my aces. If people are going to call your bet, they will call a 4x bet too and you are making the pot way too big pre flop already. The bet on the flop was half pot size which got me the information I wanted ... He calls so he is probably on some kind of draw. The turn bet actually gave me all the information I needed .. I was beat. What hand would raise me on the turn that I could still beat ? Now maybe a pot bet on the flop would have gotten him out of the pot, but I prefer to make people pay a little to draw and find out if the draw gets there.
Of course I made the stupid mistake of calling his raise, and he went all in on the river. I should have folded on the turn already, but for some messed up reason I decided to call .... I think the last thing that went through my mind was, it's a freeroll When the hand was over and I was thinking about it, I knew I should have folded the turn !!
As for my stats, as you can see, those stats of pokerstars are very old. I have not played there in a long time. I have much improved my game since. The smaller bet sizes are actually part of this better game, 2.5 to 3x is really enough, it will get you the same information. I will make another thread about this where we can discuss it in detail. I'm lately only playing on Walker Poker where I am winning in both MTT and SNGs, went from $25 to $220 already .... slowly building up.
Joined: Oct '08
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Posted by acehighness: Ok, first of all, raising more pre flop is not necesarry. Do you guys raise 4x with all hands ? What are you trying to do ? Pick up the blinds ?
Here I agree with you. I would play just like this pre-flop. You were the first to raise, so perfect. You are still trying to get action here for your aces.
Do you only raise more with good hands ? Then you are giving away your hand. Like I said there are good players, they are not calling with any 2 cards just because it's 75. As you can see I only got 1 caller, plus the BB. Thats exactly what I wanted... I wanted some action on my aces. If people are going to call your bet, they will call a 4x bet too and you are making the pot way too big pre flop already. The bet on the flop was half pot size which got me the information I wanted ... He calls so he is probably on some kind of draw.
Now I would have raised more than 1/2 pot (probably 3/4 to the whole pot or even more). With 1/2 pot you gave him odds for a double ended straight draw (QT) on the flop or even for a made top pair + gutshot for a straight draw + getting second pair (QJ) which wouldn't make enough for 9 odds, the same for a flush. But he could believe he was ahead, unless you had AJ or KJ. With this bet he would never put you on overpair.
With KQ he had 2 overcards from board, (I'm guessing here he never put you on aces) + the gutshot straight draw. That makes 10 odds (Besides on 6 of them he was outdrawn! But would he know it?). A flush draw makes 9 and there's still turn and river. Enough to pay. Maybe you got too greed on what you could get...
If he had KQ, he may have put you (wrongly) on a Jack pair, so he could easily call even a whole pot bet. An overbet would be the best play besides, I admit, I wouldn't have done such play...
The turn bet actually gave me all the information I needed .. I was beat. What hand would raise me on the turn that I could still beat ?
Didn't see the river card, but here I guess: he made the straight. Hand over... Fold and forget your aces...
Now maybe a pot bet on the flop would have gotten him out of the pot, but I prefer to make people pay a little to draw and find out if the draw gets there.
I'd rather win the pot earlier... But it is an opinion...
Of course I made the stupid mistake of calling his raise, and he went all in on the river. I should have folded on the turn already, but for some messed up reason I decided to call .... I think the last thing that went through my mind was, it's a freeroll When the hand was over and I was thinking about it, I knew I should have folded the turn !!
Yes, you should... But you could also put him on a bluff or only a flush draw and call. But KQ (even offsuit) seemed enough for paying on flop and winning on turn here... K Q would be just a plus...
Of course, it's my opinion. I'm just beginning and still have a long way ahead...
Edited by allkilled (19 December 2008 @ 12:01 GMT)
Joined: Mar '08
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Knowing the table I dont think there is anything wrong with sticking to the 3x pre-flop for action, blinds are to low to bother stealing. Needed a stronger bet on flop, think you should have too t there. turn- think you got tested, my guess is that he knew he could now push you off the pot. Dont think he would have chased a big raise on the flop, the 10 gave him reason to fire one at you, i think you got bluffed due to the flop play, but right to fold on the turn.
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Always sucks, slow playing, trying to trap someone but than you trap yourself and you don't know where you're at.
Deep stakes, low blinds, early position. You have to raise at least 4x, anyone on the button or cut off who calls with a pair could easily hit a set and you'd be out of position and you only get 75 chips of your 2500k chips in with the best hand. I would often raise a lot more since it is a freeroll and often a lot of bad players willing to go broke with any ace.
You might want to read Phil Gordon's Little Green book or Harrington on Hold'em. Harrington on Hold'em changed the way I think about poker
Joined: Mar '08
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Dont suppose you know were to get harrington on holdem 1+2 for free do you, dolly put his on his own site was woundering if harrington has it hidden anywere?
Joined: Oct '08
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exspecially pokerstars is known for their players raising/calling randomly...i wonder you got only 1 caller with only a 2,5 bet. have to agree to geneyuss statement...once more deep stakes, low blinds. i do not say this is a guid for everyone, but with such low blinds i raise 10x ! and in freerolls i always get caller. 15/30 blinds i raise at least to 200. and when the blinds go up 100/200 or even more, then i keep to the 3x bet. but with such low blinds..
Joined: Jan '08
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Ok, first of all, raising more pre flop is not necesarry. Do you guys raise 4x with all hands ? What are you trying to do ? Pick up the blinds ?
No, but raising 2,5BB with worst flop odds on entire table is not a good practice.
Do you only raise more with good hands ? Then you are giving away your hand.
Yeah, I want to tell entire world that I have pocket aces or keep quiet if you think it is for the best, because its blackjack with them, either go big or go small, no middle. They are good if your opponent miss/bust. So what if I wont get paid this time, look how much you got paid.
Now maybe a pot bet on the flop would have gotten him out of the pot, but I prefer to make people pay a little to draw and find out if the draw gets there.
let me give you friendly advice, you don`t want people to chase their draws when you don`t have nuts. That is the purpose of big bets, but since You play on merge I understand why you did not bet more. On merge You will get called no matter how much You bet on flop if someone has any kind of a draw even bottom pair is considered good to call pot bet by 30% of the players there.
Joined: Jan '08
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Posted by shokaku:
Posted by Predobar: Yeah, I want to tell entire world that I have pocket aces
What? That allows your opponents to play perfectly against you. But i doubt that many players in a freeroll will even notice it.
What could they play differently than they usually do? Trying to bluff me out of the pot, I take care of that before I get the aces, if it is not the first hand in tourney. Problem is with tourneys if you get reseated often, then it can be really tough to enforce image and all you can do is win mini battles.
True about freerolls, you can impersonate pocket quads and someone will call with junk, or like guy who called my allin on turn after min raising his 2BB bet on flop on board A K 9 J , with his A Q and I am holding K J , guess what guy catches on river, a 9 . He was no shortstack and I had him covered. I did not have need to bluff at that table yet. Go figure what he was thinking when he called that allin. He had 1 aces, 2 queens, 2 nines and 3 ten`s for win on 1 card to come, thats 16% for win.
So then why are you asking for help if you think your play was correct? when you want people on a draw to call you, you got to accept that they hit their str8 or flush. i think you made it way to cheap on the flop for an open ended str8 draw, 3:1 and 30%, you asked him to call you. but if you are successfull with that kind of play on this poker site, keep it up.
Joined: Jan '08
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Believe me on Merge network normal play does not count at all. Will You be a winner or a loser is not something You can influence too much. At least not on low limits and on FL it is too sick. I wanted to say a lot more but deleted most of my post for 2nd time, who knows maybe in 3rd attempt will i elaborate on merge network. One advice acehighness, forget most of the things that you learned playing there.
Q 
When the hand was over and I was thinking about it, I knew I should have folded the turn !!
I would play just like this pre-flop. You were the first to raise, so perfect. You are still trying to get action here for your aces.
+ getting second pair (QJ) which wouldn't make enough for 9 odds, the same for a flush. But he could believe he was ahead, unless you had AJ or KJ. With this bet he would never put you on overpair.
Hand over... Fold and forget your aces...
K 
Q 
. He was no shortstack and I had him covered. I did not have need to bluff at that table yet. Go figure what he was thinking when he called that allin. He had 1 aces, 2 queens, 2 nines and 3 ten`s for win on 1 card to come, thats 16% for win.
