Joined: Dec '07
Location: Denmark
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 2644
@doomdy
Hehe knew it would get confusing which is why I didn't want to do the "guessing game". Predobar put up different imaginary scenarios and thoughts that I commented. I think it's a bad idea because you put up a specific scenario that we are supose to discuss.
I allready gave my opinion above. I would bet pot on flop and make a maybe weak'ish CF on that horrible turn with 2 villains and blinds/stack in mind. It's hard to get a call from hands you beat on turn(depends on level obv). Your hand looks like what it is, wether you bet it or CR it IMO.
Maybe state BI on S&G next time so we know how competent oppenents are.
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 1308
OK you put up your reasons why you think my post is BS. I am listening and I am willing to accept good reason so I`ll try to explain why I said something and if possible question what do you think is better to do.
For your 1st quote about me suggesting to check the flop. In cash game it is fine thing to do what you are proposing. i do it all the time don`t worry even when im not holding 2, but not early in tourney and without nuts without any clue what others might hold and what are they willing to call with. Specially not in single table SNG where you have to win a lot more tournaments to be in positive balance. People have tendencies to chase PB in position with pocket pair, like that 99 guy did and if someone is holding flush draw, he would definitely want to see the turn with PB and 1 call. OK so you say bet more, while it is justified by odds sometimes in tourney one must think ahead and calculate how much damage will that pot do to you if you lose in a game that has just started and everyone is around same stack, meaning everyone have same hitting power. In beginning of tourney someone might decide to chase top pair or flush draw, even pocket pairs, calling big bets on flop, also in beginning of tourney if someone gets pot committed there is a big chance that person will call your turn bet, which will now have to be allin, even if that person is underdog. That is why I would check and let them tell me what they have and at the same time keeping the pot small enough for me to call some small trap bet on turn if guy hits his flush draw, or in this case J, hoping to hit what doomdy did hit on river and that guy has big chance now of going allin thinking you have weak J or something, so in this scenario doomdy would have probably get one guy allin for sure. If he, guy holding the J, bets big on turn, 22JJ board, you can fold cheap pot. Of course its not good thing to call big bets with 2% but if flop is not good for you and you know that you wont call big bet also if board is good for someone to lay trap, it is for the best to let him play his trap possibly to see river for free, thats why no bet on turn.
2nd quote: This is somewhat explained in my reply to first quote. It is beginning of tourney, doomdy does not have nuts and there are a lot more hands that are people willing to chase early in tourney which will beat him. All hearts, Jacks, and every 2 of someones pocket pair are a possibility, live card, in limped flop and betting on flop will only commit doomdy more to the pot and give them some clue which hands he is affraid of and which hand is he holding opening more space to bluff on turn if something bad falls on turn for him. Remember that he is 2nd to act, not last. As I said earlier in this post, tourney is played in stages, first being getting into the money with as much chips as possible, second stage would be getting to final table where real payouts start (since this is single table sng it cant be applied here) and final stage once you get to final table or youre in the money to win this tourney. You don`t have to chase every flop to win it and there is no rebuy in single table tourneys. Cash game, definitely big bet on flop but not in tourney.
3rd quote, lets assume: You tell me, lets not guess, what would you do on flop if doomdy checked and you were in late position holding 99 in 22J (2 hearts) board? How much would you bet if you would bet at all.
4th quote: Ok I agree, this really depends how you want to play it and how much of your chips are you willing to risk on such premium hand like 7-2o. OK you do have the good hand on flop but this hand has no big chance of improving and if someone hits his top pair you want to root him out of the crowd, in this case 3, so that you can play this hand HU. Why this and not standard trap, because although it is slim chance there is a chance that someone will chase pocket pair and hit there is also a chance that someone will make boat with his top pair and you want to limit those hands a little so that at least pocket pair folds. Once you have that guy holding top pair or flush draw heads up you can play with him on turn if he misses trying to min bet him into trap if board does not help him or something comes up which may give him some hope to bluff at you in a pot to which he is now already committed. OK why would he call you ask, just because people don`t understand psychology it does not mean there is not such thing. Believe me people are more willing to believe that you are not holding 2`s if you bet more than if you trap, of course this cant be applied to someone who is multitabling, most of the time, and thats why I hate multitabling because it kills the game and its little "sidegames".
5th quote: You completely misread my post, I know its getting boring to read long posts but I explained that this was hypothetical situation in the beginning of 2nd part of my post. I was just telling, not doomdy i know he knows this, that in order to get flush draw out of the hand one must overbet it and since its a tourney it was not a good idea.
6th quote: It is easy for you to say what are you afraid of them chasing their 2 outs when you know what they are holding. What if board is rainbow and guy holds 910 or KQ and 8 or 10 falls on turn, not to mention situation when he is holding suited connectors and he gets straigh or flush draw, this was a limped pot, opponents could hold AA and small pocket pair or suited connectors or just suited. Fact is that you dont know and can hardly guess what are they holding. You are getting yourself in danger of losing entire stack with worst hand in this situation, with you holding good hand at the moment and your opponents are having good chance of improving their hand and letting them see the flop in this situation could be profitable only if they do hit something and if that happens you are giving them implied odds to call your PB on turn. If you lose you`re going to lose your entire stack in this hand. Should one risk a tourney life? Thats entirely up to person actually playing that hand but I know I would rather take 300 chips and get out of there before the hand goes to someone else and wait for a hand where things are not that tricky and I have better position. ONE thing that turns all these things upside down is turbo tourney where you cant see much hands before you become shortstack and must take what is offered, do or die.
7th quote: Maybe tomorrow will I have something to say, its late and I just came to see this thread but it prolonged a little more than I thought it will, but as I am thinking now it is pretty much covered earlier in this post.
There are other things why that play can pay off in single table tourneys but I really don`t have time anymore to write.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 6714
Well its a good argument, but it starts with check the flop, IMO wrong dispite the long reason why. If you aint betting your sets then you must be afraid of all flops with a draw, as m3 says its a case of giving them bad odds to call. So its a must bet the flop. Come turn well you gotta think your now in trouble or against PP on a mission, now that bet is bad either make a proper bet or dont, it left you open to all sorts of horrid seinarios, this is for sure take it on the flop hand. Dont wait untill your likley beat. Now that lttle re-raise 120 in to a 1k ish pot, you could call and fold on river, not a problem folding to it now tho, its possable he has just spotted weakness and testing the water, PP might still be good.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
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Posts: 6197
Posted by B1gfoot: Well its a good argument, but it starts with check the flop, IMO wrong dispite the long reason why. If you aint betting your sets then you must be afraid of all flops with a draw, as m3 says its a case of giving them bad odds to call. So its a must bet the flop.
Or your replying on some1 else or you didnt read my handhistory But i did bet the flop
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
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Posts: 6787
Posted by doomdy: Bigger? Wots wrong with bet pot on the flop
Without stack sizes this is not to judge. I don't know how call happy the other players are, but 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot would have been enough in most cases.
Overbetting the pot is just silly if you don't have an image of a maniac.
Joined: Mar '08
Location: Australia
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 1158
what can i say online poker is a zoo out there nowdays.people play everything and everything.just gotta time it right and all be good.and live with the junky beats
Joined: Jan '08
Location: Croatia
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Posts: 1308
@b1gfoot Even PB is not giving them odds to call but doomdy still had both of them in hand on turn. With checking the flop not only that you give yourself opportunity to see river for less money, saving chips for later on, but also to lay good trap if hand played out differently, for example if J didnt came on turn and instead came 5 and river came 10 or even better A. Doomdy would have had again one player allin without risking to much money on flop where hand can go multiple ways. That guy with AJ would assume that he has the best hand, maybe even 99 guys would think he had a good hand too and they all bet big. They might even see doomdy`s allin on river as a bluff. Its the beginning of the tourney, that is the whole point why check and not commit to pot too much.
I agree, 120 on turn was really bad move. If I played the flop as doomdy did I would most likely just check the turn and try to see river for nothing. I wouldnt bet because there is a good possibility someone called flop with J and putting more money voluntarily in the pot is not a good idea in that situation.
