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when playing a tourney with the OPs stack and position I push when ever I feel weakness or have position or god forbid have AK EV+ sounds right to me with any hand in an unraised pot, wont be many times you get trappy play in the situation the OP was in
The EV perspective is the right way to approach gambling, including poker. Try to always think: "Do I have a positive EV or not?" and play only when you do have it. It can be applied on everything from table selection to a single call desiscion. In abstract terms EV is everything in poker.
Edited by midnight1954 (09 February 2011 @ 19:30 GMT)
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
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Posted by doomdy:
Posted by jovicakralj: I still cant understand why some of you think that he should take coin flip here? He had healthy stack! And it is obvious that if someone goes all in and he have healthy stack he have strong pair!
Why thats obvious In this spot being SB folding to me i am pushing so many hands, not only AK, AA, KK, QQ. For example i am pushing KQ KJ AQ AJ AT, 22+, even QTs K9s stuff like that i am pushing here. You play2cash and thats fine for you and deffo EV+ play, i play2win which is also EV+ and makes me more money then play2cash. You cash more then me, I cash bigger average.
Doomdy I have huge respect for you as obviously great tourney player... Im not playing to cash! Im playing to stay alive in tourney until I find spot where I think that I have best hand. If that player is guy who goes all in all the time or he is short stack I wold definitely go all in here but Almond sad that he put him on pair and if I put someone on pair who can bust me Im not calling if Im not short stack because that guy is favorite! Why would I risk my whole healthy stack in hand where I think I would be underdog??? That is my opinion and that is how I play, not saying that Im right...
Posted by jovicakralj: I still cant understand why some of you think that he should take coin flip here? He had healthy stack! And it is obvious that if someone goes all in and he have healthy stack he have strong pair!
Why thats obvious In this spot being SB folding to me i am pushing so many hands, not only AK, AA, KK, QQ. For example i am pushing KQ KJ AQ AJ AT, 22+, even QTs K9s stuff like that i am pushing here. You play2cash and thats fine for you and deffo EV+ play, i play2win which is also EV+ and makes me more money then play2cash. You cash more then me, I cash bigger average.
Doomdy I have huge respect for you as obviously great tourney player... Im not playing to cash! Im playing to stay alive in tourney until I find spot where I think that I have best hand. If that player is guy who goes all in all the time or he is short stack I wold definitely go all in here but Almond sad that he put him on pair and if I put someone on pair who can bust me Im not calling if Im not short stack because that guy is favorite! Why would I risk my whole healthy stack in hand where I think I would be underdog??? That is my opinion and that is how I play, not saying that Im right...
you say you are not playing to cash but to survive? when I play a tourney and find myself in the OPs position which was average stack at best and find myself in his position with that hand even if 100% sure the other player had pocket pair the call is the correct play , I have a reasonable record in tourneys and I have never played one with survival as my mindset even though certain tutorial books are firm that thats how to think, maybe during the first few years I felt the need to play that way but any tournament I have won or made a decent roi has been determined by plays such as the call the OP made with AK, as the above posts put forward
like you say you play your way if it works for you thats good , but with 17 left and AK in hand heads up baisicly with a double up possible, are you still saying you would fold?
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
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Posts: 6197
If ur folding AK in this spot ur deffo not play2win
------------ This was 5min ago:
Table #34691002 - Tournament #20692775 Table #58 Starting Hand #1615537661 Start time of hand: 09 Feb 2011 20:52:56 Last Hand #1615534639 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 150 / 300 Button is at seat 2 Seat 1: foxhills - 2,320 Seat 2: bora03 - 6,255 Seat 3: lukemaster1 - 7,485 Seat 4: kobold1703 - 23,725 Seat 5: 64Ricarda53 - 8,970 Seat 6: HenriqueSP - 12,775 Seat 7: daveskings - 8,670 Seat 8: PAYNOR - 7,455 Seat 9: domdy - 3,455 Seat 10: kaysus101 - 5,510 Moving Button to seat 3 foxhills posts ante of 25 bora03 posts ante of 25 lukemaster1 posts ante of 25 kobold1703 posts ante of 25 64Ricarda53 posts ante of 25 HenriqueSP posts ante of 25 daveskings posts ante of 25 PAYNOR posts ante of 25 domdy posts ante of 25 kaysus101 posts ante of 25 Pot sizes: 250 kobold1703 posts small blind (150) 64Ricarda53 posts big blind (300) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [8 d][K d] to domdy HenriqueSP folds daveskings folds PAYNOR calls 300 domdy raises to 3,430 (all-in) kaysus101 folds foxhills calls 2,295 (all-in) bora03 folds lukemaster1 folds kobold1703 folds 64Ricarda53 folds PAYNOR calls 3,430 Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 foxhills shows [J s][K s] PAYNOR shows [A d][J d] domdy shows [8 d][K d] Dealing Flop [6 h][7 c][3 d] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 Dealing Turn [5 h] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 Dealing River [9 h] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 domdy has Straight, 9 high domdy wins 2,270 from side pot #1 with: Straight, 9 high domdy wins 7,585 with: Straight, 9 high Seat 1: foxhills - 0 Seat 2: bora03 - 6,230 Seat 3: lukemaster1 - 7,460 Seat 4: kobold1703 - 23,550 Seat 5: 64Ricarda53 - 8,645 Seat 6: HenriqueSP - 12,750 Seat 7: daveskings - 8,645 Seat 8: PAYNOR - 4,000 Seat 9: domdy - 9,855 Seat 10: kaysus101 - 5,485 End of Hand #1615537661
------------ And 5min later this 1:
Table #34691590 - Tournament #20692775 Table #67 Starting Hand #1615554273 Start time of hand: 09 Feb 2011 21:04:33 Last Hand #1615552446 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 200 / 400 Button is at seat 4 Seat 1: garyzak - 13,510 Seat 2: wilcy123 - 17,448 Seat 3: topgambler1992 - 4,376 Seat 4: fragiledream - 3,249 Seat 5: FaceofBoe - 13,255 Seat 6: Lilyuki - 29,704 Seat 7: tjoeks - 1,290 Seat 8: domdy - 9,255 Seat 9: Jannick74 - 10,910 Seat 10: keeper81 - 6,450 Moving Button to seat 6 garyzak posts ante of 50 wilcy123 posts ante of 50 topgambler1992 posts ante of 50 fragiledream posts ante of 50 FaceofBoe posts ante of 50 Lilyuki posts ante of 50 tjoeks posts ante of 50 domdy posts ante of 50 Jannick74 posts ante of 50 keeper81 posts ante of 50 wilcy123 can't believe it. Pot sizes: 500 tjoeks posts small blind (200) domdy posts big blind (400) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [A h][K s] to domdy Jannick74 folds keeper81 folds garyzak folds wilcy123 folds topgambler1992 folds fragiledream folds FaceofBoe folds Lilyuki raises to 1,200 tjoeks folds domdy raises to 9,205 (all-in) Lilyuki folds Pot sizes: 3,100 domdy doesn't show domdy wins 3,100 Seat 1: garyzak - 13,460 Seat 2: wilcy123 - 17,398 Seat 3: topgambler1992 - 4,326 Seat 4: fragiledream - 3,199 Seat 5: FaceofBoe - 13,205 Seat 6: Lilyuki - 28,454 Seat 7: tjoeks - 1,040 Seat 8: domdy - 11,105 Seat 9: Jannick74 - 10,860 Seat 10: keeper81 - 6,400 End of Hand #1615554273
Its just standard play with AK with high blinds, it really got nothing to do with the bubble, i dont care about the bubble, i never look at the bubble. My goal is allways 1st make Final Table, then 2nd make top3 cos there are the big prices and 3rd ship the motherfoker.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 2087
I would probably call that one too. I would fold that hand only if I have strong read that he have strong pair. When Im playing Im just trying to make best possible choices and result will come... Im not player who says to himself: "now is time to double up" and then go all in or call all in with hand that I dont think is good. In almost every tournament I can see chip leader on final table not to finish in first 3. Thing that you have more chips then other players does not guarantee you first 3 places.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
I used to play2cash, its deffo EV+ but i only say play2win is more EV+
Example: Lets say we play 10.000 MTTs $10 buyin:
Play2cash: 2.000 ITM cashes. Average profit per game $2. Total profit $20.000.
Play2win: 1.300 ITM cashes. Average profit per game $3. Total profit $30.000.
Just an example....
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Posted by doomdy: If ur folding AK in this spot ur deffo not play2win
------------ This was 5min ago:
Table #34691002 - Tournament #20692775 Table #58 Starting Hand #1615537661 Start time of hand: 09 Feb 2011 20:52:56 Last Hand #1615534639 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 150 / 300 Button is at seat 2 Seat 1: foxhills - 2,320 Seat 2: bora03 - 6,255 Seat 3: lukemaster1 - 7,485 Seat 4: kobold1703 - 23,725 Seat 5: 64Ricarda53 - 8,970 Seat 6: HenriqueSP - 12,775 Seat 7: daveskings - 8,670 Seat 8: PAYNOR - 7,455 Seat 9: domdy - 3,455 Seat 10: kaysus101 - 5,510 Moving Button to seat 3 foxhills posts ante of 25 bora03 posts ante of 25 lukemaster1 posts ante of 25 kobold1703 posts ante of 25 64Ricarda53 posts ante of 25 HenriqueSP posts ante of 25 daveskings posts ante of 25 PAYNOR posts ante of 25 domdy posts ante of 25 kaysus101 posts ante of 25 Pot sizes: 250 kobold1703 posts small blind (150) 64Ricarda53 posts big blind (300) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [8 d][K d] to domdy HenriqueSP folds daveskings folds PAYNOR calls 300 domdy raises to 3,430 (all-in) kaysus101 folds foxhills calls 2,295 (all-in) bora03 folds lukemaster1 folds kobold1703 folds 64Ricarda53 folds PAYNOR calls 3,430 Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 foxhills shows [J s][K s] PAYNOR shows [A d][J d] domdy shows [8 d][K d] Dealing Flop [6 h][7 c][3 d] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 Dealing Turn [5 h] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 Dealing River [9 h] Pot sizes: 7,585 Pot sizes: 2,270 domdy has Straight, 9 high domdy wins 2,270 from side pot #1 with: Straight, 9 high domdy wins 7,585 with: Straight, 9 high Seat 1: foxhills - 0 Seat 2: bora03 - 6,230 Seat 3: lukemaster1 - 7,460 Seat 4: kobold1703 - 23,550 Seat 5: 64Ricarda53 - 8,645 Seat 6: HenriqueSP - 12,750 Seat 7: daveskings - 8,645 Seat 8: PAYNOR - 4,000 Seat 9: domdy - 9,855 Seat 10: kaysus101 - 5,485 End of Hand #1615537661
------------ And 5min later this 1:
Table #34691590 - Tournament #20692775 Table #67 Starting Hand #1615554273 Start time of hand: 09 Feb 2011 21:04:33 Last Hand #1615552446 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 200 / 400 Button is at seat 4 Seat 1: garyzak - 13,510 Seat 2: wilcy123 - 17,448 Seat 3: topgambler1992 - 4,376 Seat 4: fragiledream - 3,249 Seat 5: FaceofBoe - 13,255 Seat 6: Lilyuki - 29,704 Seat 7: tjoeks - 1,290 Seat 8: domdy - 9,255 Seat 9: Jannick74 - 10,910 Seat 10: keeper81 - 6,450 Moving Button to seat 6 garyzak posts ante of 50 wilcy123 posts ante of 50 topgambler1992 posts ante of 50 fragiledream posts ante of 50 FaceofBoe posts ante of 50 Lilyuki posts ante of 50 tjoeks posts ante of 50 domdy posts ante of 50 Jannick74 posts ante of 50 keeper81 posts ante of 50 wilcy123 can't believe it. Pot sizes: 500 tjoeks posts small blind (200) domdy posts big blind (400) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [A h][K s] to domdy Jannick74 folds keeper81 folds garyzak folds wilcy123 folds topgambler1992 folds fragiledream folds FaceofBoe folds Lilyuki raises to 1,200 tjoeks folds domdy raises to 9,205 (all-in) Lilyuki folds Pot sizes: 3,100 domdy doesn't show domdy wins 3,100 Seat 1: garyzak - 13,460 Seat 2: wilcy123 - 17,398 Seat 3: topgambler1992 - 4,326 Seat 4: fragiledream - 3,199 Seat 5: FaceofBoe - 13,205 Seat 6: Lilyuki - 28,454 Seat 7: tjoeks - 1,040 Seat 8: domdy - 11,105 Seat 9: Jannick74 - 10,860 Seat 10: keeper81 - 6,400 End of Hand #1615554273
Its just standard play with AK with high blinds, it really got nothing to do with the bubble, i dont care about the bubble, i never look at the bubble. My goal is allways 1st make Final Table, then 2nd make top3 cos there are the big prices and 3rd ship the motherfoker.
And this was my final hand
Table #34692164 - Tournament #20692775 Table #75 Starting Hand #1615621848 Start time of hand: 09 Feb 2011 21:52:14 Last Hand #1615618940 Game Type: HOLD'EM Limit Type: NO LIMIT Table Type: TOURNAMENT Money Type: TOURNAMENT CHIPS Blinds are now 800 / 1,600 Button is at seat 6 Seat 1: MrBBerg - 10,900 Seat 3: domdy - 11,630 Seat 4: fonzy1225 - 36,139 Seat 5: TalisMahn - 138,951 Seat 6: Sanne32 - 13,177 Seat 7: powley34 - 9,110 Seat 8: MRDICKIE - 5,355 Seat 9: royalecky - 9,355 Seat 10: MirkMirksen - 14,993 Moving Button to seat 7 MrBBerg posts ante of 175 domdy posts ante of 175 fonzy1225 posts ante of 175 TalisMahn posts ante of 175 Sanne32 posts ante of 175 powley34 posts ante of 175 MRDICKIE posts ante of 175 royalecky posts ante of 175 MirkMirksen posts ante of 175 Pot sizes: 1,575 MRDICKIE posts small blind (800) royalecky posts big blind (1,600) Shuffling Deck Dealing Cards Dealing [A s][A d] to domdy MirkMirksen raises to 14,818 (all-in) MrBBerg folds domdy calls 11,455 (all-in) fonzy1225 folds TalisMahn folds Sanne32 folds MRDICKIE cries. MRDICKIE: nhs powley34 folds MRDICKIE folds royalecky calls 9,180 (all-in) Returning 3,363 to MirkMirksen uncalled Pot sizes: 29,915 Pot sizes: 4,550 domdy shows [A s][A d] royalecky shows [J c][A c] MirkMirksen shows [3 d][3 h] Dealing Flop [9 s][3 c][T d] Pot sizes: 29,915 Pot sizes: 4,550 Dealing Turn [K c] Pot sizes: 29,915 Pot sizes: 4,550 Dealing River [2 c] Pot sizes: 29,915 Pot sizes: 4,550 MirkMirksen has Three of a Kind: 3s MirkMirksen wins 4,550 from side pot #1 with: Three of a Kind: 3s domdy shakes his head. royalecky has Flush, Ace high MRDICKIE: wow royalecky wins 29,915 with: Flush, Ace high Seat 1: MrBBerg - 10,725 Seat 3: domdy - 0 Seat 4: fonzy1225 - 35,964 Seat 5: TalisMahn - 138,776 Seat 6: Sanne32 - 13,002 Seat 7: powley34 - 8,935 Seat 8: MRDICKIE - 4,380 Seat 9: royalecky - 29,915 Seat 10: MirkMirksen - 7,913 End of Hand #1615621848
Joined: Feb '11
Location: Philippines
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 228
this is a call...
first, the small blind forced you to have a great hand. and you did. so you called. 2nd, if the small blind didn't go all-in, i'm pretty sure you would've raised with AK.he then would've push all in and you would've have called anyway.
Joined: Dec '09
Location: Ireland
Age: 44 (M)
Posts: 389
it didnt matter that he had a strong pair as i said,i put him on a middle pair,he may aswell of had 22 as QQ. Its just to see what players will do in this position .It was an odd one as we both were comfortable in chips and I had not played many hand v opponent as he was not at the table longer than 15mins. In 99% of people it would be a tight fold, there wasnt any value in pot 400/800 blinds i think, thats beside the point. it takes a certain type of player to fold this either way, super tight , but my reason for calling was to win the game,not to fold and wonder was I ahead and wait for a few small stacks to die off and cash. I took the bull by the horn and went for it, of coarse i regretted it when i lost but i would do it again if i was put in that situation i think.
mabye i didnt learn anything in your eyes but the poll is proving my decision the right one so far anyway and that im glad of. its all a learning curve
Joined: Oct '10
Location: Romania
Age: 36 (M)
Posts: 178
Definately fold. You were at a coin flip at best since people like to push pairs (he shoved 20BB, that's no small amount). Coin flips should be avoided early in the tournament and on the bubble. Your priorities should be 1. get in the money 2. win the tournament You can only win the tournament if you first get in the money. It's not very important to get into the money with a very large stack, a medium one is all you need since a double-up would put you in a confortable spot. Also, you said 2 more players left during the start/end of your hand which makes me think players were leaving at a fast rate. Also you weren't in danger of blinding out so I don't see any reason to call.
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Philippines
Age: 41 (M)
Posts: 326
Posted by Almonds: Hi, I was playing a tourney on full tilt last night and went deep, 19players left,16 paid,$10 buy in. Sat in BB with AK off and all fold to SB who pushes all in for a little over 20 BB , he/she had a little less chips than me. I delayed as much as I could and put him on middle pair[may aswell of had 22 v AK] and decided to call. player turns over QQ for a coin flip v AK. i found it a strange move considering we were both reasonably comfortable in chip sizes but decided to take my chances andtry give myself a big stack heading towars final table as there were a lot of small stacks. needless to sayQQ held up and i left in 17th position on bubble. should I of called?
Well for me if , Ill play it differently, if there is only 19 left and 16 is paid , i will just fold it, i'll cwait fir the sure , but if I have a pair qq, kk, AA preflop its the only way I gonna call it, bt others hands I fold.
Posted by BadeaCR: Definately fold. You were at a coin flip at best since people like to push pairs (he shoved 20BB, that's no small amount). Coin flips should be avoided early in the tournament and on the bubble. Your priorities should be 1. get in the money 2. win the tournament You can only win the tournament if you first get in the money. It's not very important to get into the money with a very large stack, a medium one is all you need since a double-up would put you in a confortable spot. Also, you said 2 more players left during the start/end of your hand which makes me think players were leaving at a fast rate. Also you weren't in danger of blinding out so I don't see any reason to call.
I really dont think you have read through this thread and listened to the reasons why the call was the correct choice, if you go with the mindset of fold this hand in this situation you will not win tournaments or finish in a position giving you a high ROI , the reasons for the call are well argued for in Dooms post in particular where he explains EV or exspected value , read Dooms posts then perhaps you will see the reasons why the call was good, playing for 3 hours and finishing on the bubble or close to it is like a slap in the face to me, only final table or top 3 make me happy ,,
Joined: Oct '08
Location: United States
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 10
Lol lemme make a recommendation. Don't even look at the lobby unless you want to know when to abuse the bubble and it's obvious if u don't beat this guy in the pot that you are not. All you need to know is that you want all the chips.
Honestly I'm at least raising if not shoving ur blind 20 bbs deep on the bubble bvb with almost 100 percent. I might even do it blind, it just depends on the dynamic. If you are folding Ak it is so insanely profitable it blows my mind. FYI KTs is a fist pump against alot of ppl I play against.
Some people don't understand the value of a hand like 46s bvb. Bad players fold so much, and even if they call you still have 30 percent equity almost always.
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 33 (F)
Posts: 1180
Posted by Almonds: Hi, I was playing a tourney on full tilt last night and went deep, 19players left,16 paid,$10 buy in. Sat in BB with AK off and all fold to SB who pushes all in for a little over 20 BB , he/she had a little less chips than me. I delayed as much as I could and put him on middle pair[may aswell of had 22 v AK] and decided to call. player turns over QQ for a coin flip v AK. i found it a strange move considering we were both reasonably comfortable in chip sizes but decided to take my chances andtry give myself a big stack heading towars final table as there were a lot of small stacks. needless to sayQQ held up and i left in 17th position on bubble. should I of called?
Call, you had good hand and you were playing not for low pay out, you played for 1st position have not looked at how much players left how to survive till money and that is great;]
Joined: Oct '09
Location: Lithuania
Age: 43 (M)
Posts: 2805
on the bubble situation u must play more clever and sometimes ak must be folded easy to stay at the game ant take some money was more important then ak calling i ll in this situation easy fold made and really be happy in my money position hope u ll learn your mistakes and next time u not be bubble boy D: good luck all and be happy
In this spot being SB folding to me i am pushing so many hands, not only AK, AA, KK, QQ. For example i am pushing KQ KJ AQ AJ AT, 22+, even QTs K9s stuff like that i am pushing here. You play2cash and thats fine for you and deffo EV+ play, i play2win which is also EV+ and makes me more money then play2cash. You cash more then me, I cash bigger average. 
, but if I have a pair qq, kk, AA preflop its the only way I gonna call it, bt others hands I fold.
