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Posted by fcumred: Some people are talking about Pros and what they would do. There isnt a pro on this planet would have made that call putting their tournament life on the line with effectively Ace high when there was absolutely no need to.
Nope wrong mate sry to say.
First of all there are not so much 20BB shoves from SB into BB at pro players, pros mostly put in a normal raise, but in this case its a 20BB shove and a very easy call with AK.
Every pro wud call here if they dont they are simply not pros. I still absolutely cant believe people even consider fold here, its either totally scared money they play with or they are totally not intrested in money
I think you are missing how close to the money the OP actually was.
There isnt a pro that close to the money would call that hand putting their chances of cashing at risk. They would fold, get into the money then shove when the position suited.
Give it 10 minutes, and the bubble has burst I'd agree with you every day of the week and some.. I'd even say potentially earlier in the tournament a call would be justified.
But that close to the money, with a guaranteed cash in the bag, then no pro on this planet would make that call having got so close to the money to blow it all on a call that they weren't compelled to make.
Any other time I'd say yes, make the call, but given the circumstances, and how close to cashing he was, then calling there was unnecessary. Why play good poker for 4 hours to piss it away at the point when you are about to make the money. It makes no sense whatsoever... If you are that flippant about cashing then why not just go all in every hand from the start and hope to hell you get lucky right the way to the final table..
The whole point of poker is to preserve your tournament life. As long as you have chips you are in with a shout at the top prize. Lose them and you have no chance at all.
Get ITM, then worry about doubling up. You don't risk it that close to the money....
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Posted by midnight1954: phhhfffffffff,, ok, l,, you guys fold with the AK,, I just hope its me in the SB against you and pushing, and saying yes the donk folded AK
Well I bet you would like to be called when you have QQ against AK and you could only say then good fold... And if you do all in few times I would call you with AK for sure and you would fell silly with 810 off suited in your hands
have you looked back at the prievious posts in which Doom said more than once why the call was correct, position , exspected value, win or ladder up,, the call was a no brains for me , 10$ tourney 17 left little money for bubble position , only the top 3 show a good ROI,, for time played, the reasons for call have been well argued for in the prievious posts did you read them?,, the voting seems to agree
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Posted by fcumred:
Posted by doomdy: [QUOTE]Posted by fcumred: Some people are talking about Pros and what they would do. There isnt a pro on this planet would have made that call putting their tournament life on the line with effectively Ace high when there was absolutely no need to.
Get ITM, then worry about doubling up. You don't risk it that close to the money....
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I think that you must fold that and like you said there is many players with small stack and wait final table and at final table everything is possible,next hand maybe AA or KK,you see what was happened,maybe you can winn that tourney
Before you go any further with one school or the other, let's take a look at the statistics of A-K against both of these options.
A-K vs. a Single Opponent
The following hands are included in this comparison: AA, KK, QQ, 66, A-Q offsuit, A-Q suited and 7-8 suited.
It makes no sense to run the numbers against every possible hand, so I've chosen the majority of possible situations: overpair, pair under one of your cards, underpair (dead-end), underpair (unhindered), dominated ace and low suited connector.
hand hand% AK% AA 87.9 12.1 KK 65.9 34.1 QQ 53.8 46.2 66 52.1 47.9 AQ 28.7 71.3 The first thing to note is this list only gives you a brief glimpse into A-K's equity in this context. The idea wasn't to make a comprehensive list, but to get an idea of where A-K stands pre-flop against one opponent.
Also note that the numbers change by a few percentage points when you change suits around, as shown with the two A-Q examples.
The average equity of A♠ K♠ for all of these examples is 49%. This might be surprising, considering that it's a top 5 starting hand. Although this number is accurate, it's a good example of how statistics - even accurate statistics - rarely tell the full truth.
For example, for every time your A-K runs into AA, you're going to have multiple run-ins with hands such as A-Q, A-J, and K-Q. Statistically, you're more likely to run into QQ than KK, and there are more nondominated suited-connector hands than the contents of this list combined.
If you factored in all of the possible hands, and the frequency of playing A-K against them, you would see the A-K average win percentage climb to a very profitable level.
Edited by midnight1954 (13 February 2011 @ 14:01 GMT)
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Posted by midnight1954: have you looked back at the prievious posts in which Doom said more than once why the call was correct, position , exspected value, win or ladder up,, the call was a no brains for me , 10$ tourney 17 left little money for bubble position , only the top 3 show a good ROI,, for time played, the reasons for call have been well argued for in the prievious posts did you read them?,, the voting seems to agree
I think that you dont even trying to understand what I and few other people trying to say (btw. I dont know what position have with all in). I WILL TRY AGAIN : 1.If I know that I am dog I will not call all in when I have good stack. No matter what phase of tourney is! What is wrong here? I like to put all my chips in when I see flop at least or if I know that Im favorite before flop. 2. You dont have to double up on that AK to be winner on that tourney! I will tell you million examples for that! So first objective should be to get into the money, second to get on final table... This is not only my style of playing...If you read MTT strategy articles (not those on poker sites-if you listen to them you would be all in every hand) you will read that first goal should be to get ITM.
have a look at the above post but your position will not change, and mine iether, nothinhg wrong with that, you keep fireing with the argument that the priority is to make the money at all costs, and discount all other logic so we agree to disagree and we will play our own way,
hand hand% AK% AA 87.9 12.1 KK 65.9 34.1 QQ 53.8 46.2 66 52.1 47.9 AQ 28.7 71.3
For example, for every time your A-K runs into AA, you're going to have multiple run-ins with hands such as A-Q, A-J, and K-Q. Statistically, you're more likely to run into QQ than KK, and there are more nondominated suited-connector hands than the contents of this list combined.
If you factored in all of the possible hands, and the frequency of playing A-K against them, you would see the A-K average win percentage climb to a very profitable level.
Edited by midnight1954 (13 February 2011 @ 14:20 GMT)
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Posted by midnight1954: you keep fireing with the argument that the priority is to make the money at all costs, and discount all other logic so we agree to disagree and we will play our own way,
Now tell me where did you heard or see that I wrote that the priority is to get ITM at ALL COSTS??? I dont think that. If I think that player is bluffing and that he dont have hand I will call him on AJ there...so not at all cost...but I wont risk to be bubble boy if I think that Im against better hand...
your words " ! So first objective should be to get into the money " the OP spelled out the question ,," what do I do with AK here " , against an all in from the SB he called , the SB had qq and the ak missed so that was the result, the discussion since has been was it good call, myself and others say yes, others say no, if you fold AK as you say was best that is your decision , the arguments for the call are well put forward in numerous posts , the posts for the fold are mostly or all based on the ambition of tournament survival , it is up to the individual player to determine his course of action, 74% seem to think the call was correct,
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i know that AK looks nice preflop, but I lost milion times with AK in my hand vs. pocket pair. Statistic tells you that you have good chance to win with AK against many type of hands. But think this way: for example, you are going all in AK vs. 22, and you are better if one of 3 remaining aces or kings show (or if you get lucky to get fl or str8, but that's rare! ). If any other cards show (42 cards, excl. Aces and Kings) you are down. So if you look at statistic this way, you are not so strong with AK. Conclusion: AK is not worth of risking all your chips if you suspect you're be fighting against pocket pair
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Posted by neko365: i know that AK looks nice preflop, but I lost milion times with AK in my hand vs. pocket pair. Statistic tells you that you have good chance to win with AK against many type of hands. But think this way: for example, you are going all in AK vs. 22, and you are better if one of 3 remaining aces or kings show (or if you get lucky to get fl or str8, but that's rare! ). If any other cards show (42 cards, excl. Aces and Kings) you are down. So if you look at statistic this way, you are not so strong with AK. Conclusion: AK is not worth of risking all your chips if you suspect you're be fighting against pocket pair
Posted by midnight1954: 74% seem to think the call was correct,
Just because 74% say CALL, it doesnt mean its the correct play. All it means is 74% think AK is a monster hand that cant be folded... that says perhaps more about them than it does the 26% who can see that folding AK here makes alot more sense, and as the final result showed, would have been the correct move.
On a side note, I asked a pro friend of mine about this, and he told me to ask you one question.
If the Button had raised, and the SB had shoved all in would you still call.
Would you value your hand the same if there were TWO people showing strength ?
------------
Posted by neko365: i know that AK looks nice preflop, but I lost milion times with AK in my hand vs. pocket pair. Statistic tells you that you have good chance to win with AK against many type of hands. But think this way: for example, you are going all in AK vs. 22, and you are better if one of 3 remaining aces or kings show (or if you get lucky to get fl or str8, but that's rare! ). If any other cards show (42 cards, excl. Aces and Kings) you are down. So if you look at statistic this way, you are not so strong with AK. Conclusion: AK is not worth of risking all your chips if you suspect you're be fighting against pocket pair
yes perfectly put , but , you are moving the goalposts ( SB/BB !) in order to strengthen your point, I refer you back to the original post, on an end note because I think this thread is dry, as I said my position is that the call was good , that does not mean folding was bad , players play there own game, statisticly in the long run the call will be more profitable,
If you factored in all of the possible hands, and the frequency of playing A-K against them, you would see the A-K average win percentage climb to a very profitable level.
Edited by midnight1954 (13 February 2011 @ 21:28 GMT)
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Posted by fcumred: Get ITM, then worry about doubling up. You don't risk it that close to the money....
Please reread ur own sentence....
You dont risk it that close to the money.....
So no risk first ITM u say, so ITM u win only 1 buyin, so fold u say. If u call and u loose u only loose 1 crappy buyin, if u win in this case u be probably be sometin top10 or higher so really deep and more important u can put pressure on tight nits who folding their AK on the bubble or other monsters.
This is so abc standard i really have no clue why so many players say fold i simply dont get it
Why on earth shud i fold AK on the bubble of a MTT if i can prove its totally EV+ to call It makes no sense I really think people dont like money AK folding on this spot... Cmon be real....
------------ Also the people who say SB is shoving 20BB, he is risking his whole tourney life he must have a big pair Thats nuts
If u want to make money at MTTs dont tight up during the bubble thats the craziest thing u can do
For example at the bubble if i am SB and BB is smaller then me and evry1 is folding to me i shove standard i dont even look at my cards, also when BB have same chips as me i shove any2 cards i dont even look, its so standard, 99,5% they fold so why on earth i shud fold first
OMG folding AK on the bubble to get ITM, it makes me so sad , so bad so bad so bad, /shake head.....
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Doomdy Almonds sad that he put him on pair. Reading is part of poker and if read was that that guy have pair (doesnt matter which one-AA KK only would be disaster) then he should folded because 77, 1010, QQ...is better hand then AK... So , Im just saying that it makes no no sense to risk to be bubble boy if you think that opponent have better hand! Have queston for you... Would you call with 55 there?
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Posted by jovicakralj: Doomdy Almonds sad that he put him on pair. Reading is part of poker and if read was that that guy have pair (doesnt matter which one-AA KK only would be disaster) then he should folded because 77, 1010, QQ...is better hand then AK... So , Im just saying that it makes no no sense to risk to be bubble boy if you think that opponent have better hand! Have queston for you... Would you call with 55 there?
If u know its a flip its still EV+ to call, AK/[22...QQ] is a flip so totally EV+ to call. AK/[Ax,Kx] is more then a flip so totally totally EV+ to call.
Why everybody care so much for the bubble, surviving the bubble is only 1 crappy buyin profit, winning this flip shud giv us very good odds to hit the Final Table, which is why we play right?
Would i call with 55? My calling range wud be sometin like [AA,KK,QQ,JJ, AK,AQ]. I dont like calling in this spot but a huge yes having AK. My shoving range being that SB wud be very wide, depends on table but sometin like [22...AA], A8+ K9+ QT+ sometin like that.
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no, wouldnt call with 55,too many hands beating you. In fairness I knew it was a coin flip and only 2 hands I dont want to see are AA and KK in this spot. why are you so adament to make people see your point of view anyway, your not going to change peoples mind on it. the vote is in and AK is too big of a hand to fold in that spot in most peoples view. end of????????
, so bad so bad so bad, /shake head.....
