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POKER PLAYERS: lUCKY VS KNOWLEDGE
 

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  18-Jan-11, 15:58   #41
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by jovicakralj Smile Doomdy play ABC poker and he is very profitable and you say that he isnt right??? Shock


Well, i am not very profitable, i am just profitable, i just build my roll higher on low/middle stakes SNG/MTT. I am not saying i am right, i just say most BRM players are beginners and they deffo cant handle LAG play for sure, you need to have the basics right, so deffo have to learn ABC poker, cos its easy and profitable.

For the ones that playing LAG ''out off the box'' (not trying to offend anybody, so sry if i sound like an ass Smile): I learned thru the years i play poker i only believe stats with decent samples, its very nice to outplay some1 or total bluff him but at the end of the day/week/month/year/10years the only thing that count are stats, so just give me a decent sample of ur stats, lets say for MTT: 5K games >50% ROI and i say wow i admire ur laggy play u can be very good in the future. And for CASH: 200K hands with winrate >15BB/100BB (fullringor 6max doesnt matter) and again i say wow i admire ur laggy play u can be very good hopefully in the future.

Not trying to be a smartass but these stats can be made with smart TAG poker upto $200 stakes MTT/SNG and upto NL200 CASH.

     
  18-Jan-11, 16:13   #42
  0 
kinogomes 

Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 998
Doomdy looking that your a smart player, and knowing that i need to improove my game (if knowledge is far more important than lucky in the tables) i would like you to answer me some questions.

How can you handle multi-tabling sngs without tilt??
How can you handle multi tabling sngs without getting trapped because of less atention in the table??
Why you ask so big amount of hands to know if profitable or not??? I think 50K hands of nl5 or 10 is to know of the player is profitable or not.
I have a small amount of sngs cause i cant multi-table sngs, and if i play 4 tables cash tables i know ill end lossing most of times.
what advices do you give me to be at least even multi-tabling??
Why in the first 5k hands iam profitable at cash tables and after that loosing and loosing with not stop???

     
  18-Jan-11, 16:13   #43
  0 
watoba 
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 696
Posted by kinogomes:
Posted by MANUEDO:
I realized not to be able to play profitable after a couple of years but I keep on playing it, don't worry it's just a game Blink


If he lose time playing it to lose money its better dont play it. I am loosing money ta cash tables and i have someprofit at SNG mtt but in the end the cash tables are killing my profites. I feel i know the minimum to be at least break even and +Ev at sngs.

In my opinion i voted Lucky, poker is a game of lucky no matter what. You can be a pure amateur like Chris moneymaker but have the lucky to win a WSOP. If you tell me lucky is part of the game but the matter is knowledge, i answer you, i only know 1 player that his +EV is knowledge instead of lucky (Phil Ivey), the others is 60% lucky and 40% knowledge.


No more knowledge as luck.Luck is a part of the game thats true but in the end only a player with knowledge win´s constanly over years.Thats why i play the game and i do it better with every year i play.
I don´t know where say it maybe that was D.Brunson or another old pro " you learn it in 5 minutes but to understand the game you need a life" and i think is many trueness in these words.
And when u not win in cashgame online why you play it.I got the same problem with low limits cashgame online so i decide for me i play it not.Sometimes when i win big in a tourney i try a littlle 50c/1$ or 1/2$ most times omaha then i win sometimes there´s not so many donks on this level but how as i say it before cashgame is not my favourite online maybe a little bit omaha 25/50 cent when i have a got bankroll.Live yeah i love cashgame then i play 1/2€ or 2/4€

     
  18-Jan-11, 16:14   #44
  0 
dule-vu 

Joined: May '09
Location: Croatia
Age: 34 (M)
Posts: 8767
we have here nice discussion from 2 members!hope that wouldnt be box match here,beacuse of this Tongue !but sometimes is good to see 2 opposite opinions!

     
  18-Jan-11, 16:29   #45
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by kinogomes:
Doomdy looking that your a smart player, and knowing that i need to improove my game (if knowledge is far more important than lucky in the tables) i would like you to answer me some questions.

How can you handle multi-tabling sngs without tilt??
How can you handle multi tabling sngs without getting trapped because of less atention in the table??
Why you ask so big amount of hands to know if profitable or not??? I think 50K hands of nl5 or 10 is to know of the player is profitable or not.
I have a small amount of sngs cause i cant multi-table sngs, and if i play 4 tables cash tables i know ill end lossing most of times.
what advices do you give me to be at least even multi-tabling??
Why in the first 5k hands iam profitable at cash tables and after that loosing and loosing with not stop???


How can you handle multi-tabling sngs without tilt??
Dunno, maybe i see poker as a job, so if i tilt i loose money so a very stupid thing to do, multi and TAG play go hand in hand, very easy.

How can you handle multi tabling sngs without getting trapped because of less atention in the table??
Less atention? I play standaard 4/6 tables, easy, dont have less atention then when i play only 1.

What advices do you give me to be at least even multi-tabling??
At least play 4 tables allways, play TAG, that means u dont play so many hands, easy.

Why you ask so big amount of hands to know if profitable or not??? I think 50K hands of nl5 or 10 is to know of the player is profitable or not.
This wasnt aimed at you, sry for misunderstanding. 50K hands on CASH is nothing, CASH grinders do 50K hands in 1 month easily.

Why in the first 5k hands iam profitable at cash tables and after that loosing and loosing with not stop???
Cos 5K hands at CASH isnt even a sample size, in these 5K hands u can be running like GOD or getting raped like Hellmuth (so variance), to shut down the variance u need a very big sample size, even 200K hands isnt that much.

     
  18-Jan-11, 16:36   #46
  0 
watoba 
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 696
i think first step to win in cashgame play not 4 tables.You got no control over the game in a long time.I think you play only your cards and don´t look on the ohter players how they play betting style and so on.I think is impossible to control the game with 4 tables for a long time.When i play cashgame only one table.But two tables ok too but no more.
To go not tilt in multi´s no problem i trust my skill´s i play sng´s to hold my bankroll and tourney´s to make win.When i lost 30 tourney and i win the 31 i make profit play the most times 1 tourney and one sng at a time or 2 sng´s but that only work´s with strikly Bankrollmanagement.
btw these month 35 tourney 7 times cashes

Edited by watoba (18 January 2011 @ 16:47 GMT)


     
  18-Jan-11, 17:02   #47
  0 
kinogomes 

Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 998
Watoba i can proove you that the line between luck and knowledge its very thin at poker.

If your a player and you call untill the end everytime flush draws/straight draws against top pairs or set your only profitable if you hit the draws in the turn or river.
The probability of a flush draw win a set is not high. But if you win flush draws 70% of the times for sure you get well paid. So if you win you say of course its because your smart you know the odds.
But if you loose lots of time sset vs straight or flush draws like me youll think holy cow iam so unlucky, why i fail the set almost everytimes???

The line between one thing and another is thin. You need lucky cards in a matter of play good the turn or river.

Edited by kinogomes (18 January 2011 @ 17:06 GMT)


     
  18-Jan-11, 17:15   #48
  0 
watoba 
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 696
yeah a draw is only a draw but i don´t know really what you mean.I know the players on low limits many from these players call everythink thats why i´m not playing these limits in cashgame

------------
ah ok i know now few post before i say the last two month from 2010 i got the same i go out few places before i get money and lost,lost,lost isay it´s so rigged but it´s only in the most times a short downswing times thats happend to every player so you must have a good BRM and when you have a bad run shut down the computer or try another site to play i play on 3 site´s when i have a bad run i switch to another site or look a movie Blink

Edited by watoba (18 January 2011 @ 17:24 GMT)


     
  18-Jan-11, 17:46   #49
  0 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
Posted by doomdy:
Posted by jovicakralj Smile Doomdy play ABC poker and he is very profitable and you say that he isnt right??? Shock


Well, i am not very profitable, i am just profitable, i just build my roll higher on low/middle stakes SNG/MTT. I am not saying i am right, i just say most BRM players are beginners and they deffo cant handle LAG play for sure, you need to have the basics right, so deffo have to learn ABC poker, cos its easy and profitable.

For the ones that playing LAG ''out off the box'' (not trying to offend anybody, so sry if i sound like an ass Smile): I learned thru the years i play poker i only believe stats with decent samples, its very nice to outplay some1 or total bluff him but at the end of the day/week/month/year/10years the only thing that count are stats, so just give me a decent sample of ur stats, lets say for MTT: 5K games >50% ROI and i say wow i admire ur laggy play u can be very good in the future. And for CASH: 200K hands with winrate >15BB/100BB (fullringor 6max doesnt matter) and again i say wow i admire ur laggy play u can be very good hopefully in the future.

Not trying to be a smartass but these stats can be made with smart TAG poker upto $200 stakes MTT/SNG and upto NL200 CASH.


There are very few, if any, 50% roi SnG/MTT players out there, TAG will not get you results like this these days, possibly in the past though and definitly not at the $200 level lol.

As for cash games, I'm not sure you understand the whole x/100 thing. BB = Big Bet which is the big blind x 2. I'm sure you meant it in lower case, bb which = big blinds. Anyway, 15bb/100 (15 big blind earnt per 100 hands) is pretty much unsustainable at NL50 and upwards over a decent sample, 100k+. Of course if you're playing 1 table, thats going to take a lot of time lol, if you play 12+ not so long.

That said, variance is a strange beast, there are a lot of currently winning players out there that will soon learn they are losers just based on the fact that variance has been good to them and they knew nothing about it.


     
  18-Jan-11, 18:01   #50
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6714
Im starting to like this thread, "200K hands with winrate >15BB/100BB" WOW thats my dream, I can on a good 4-6 weeks keep a 6/100 at NL100 (10-15khands) and im damn happy with that, longer term for NL100 I av 3-4/100 and im damn happy with that too, 15/100 over 200k I quit work Smile and make the news, If you do AV 15/100 then move up stakes fast.
For tourns you dont play any one style, if LAG or TAG etc throughout then you should not be playing tourns...Im sure you could hit ITM quite regualy with good play but top 10 will become scars a 1st place will be rare, and thats what tourns are about a 1st place.
Anyway bact to the topic, how can knowlage be beating luck.
@JeVoOo never rule anything out, there are some good free coaching sessions he could do, but if he wanted he would have found them by now.
I love all the advice he is getting, LOL, all we have to do know is figure out what he plays how he plays, why he is losing, whats tilting him....oh the list goes on so im stopping here.
Had a good LOL reading Big Smile

     
  18-Jan-11, 18:23   #51
  0 
jevo 

Joined: Oct '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 1086
3-4bb/100 is a good win rate and totally sustainable, nice one B1gfoot!

The deeper you get into MTTs the more stealing/re-stealing with any two becomes vital, which obviously means gambling. This is where the majority of the beats that people bitch about come from. I love it Blink

And yeah, it's obviously pointless mentioning coaching anymore, why tap the glass right? Blink

     
  18-Jan-11, 18:58   #52
  0 
kinogomes 

Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 998
Cmon guys we are runing from the main subject of the thread.

I was giving myself as an example of a unlucky player, of course i know where my game lacks, but its something that i cant help sometimes when iam playing.

The main reason of this thread is to debate luck at tables vs knowledge.

------------
Iam going to put a pic that happened with me tonight to show why i consider myself an unlucky player because its the kind of situaction that happens with me regularly.

Edited by kinogomes (18 January 2011 @ 21:00 GMT)


     
  18-Jan-11, 21:09   #53
  0 
watoba 
Joined: May '08
Location: Germany
Age: 47 (M)
Posts: 696
yeah unlucky but normal i got bad beats on turn on river the most times.November i lost in 8-10 hours 7 times against a Full house.

     
  18-Jan-11, 22:23   #54
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Yes i meant xBB/100 offcourse.
Anyway i cant understand ur saying u killing abc when u have 3-4BB/100 win rate Confused That means good TAG players beating ur winrate easy and not you killing them Confused

I know many regs cash players beating NL100, NL200 with a winrate >10BB/100 with just TAG play.
Also i know many regs players beating MTT with ROI over 50%

Anyway back on topic, @ Kinogomes: 55 versus AK is a flip, how can you speak of bad luck? In long run 55 versus AK u win 50% and you loose 50% also you, becos u lost 10 flips in a row doesnt mean ur more unlucky then other players, thats just the variance.

     
  18-Jan-11, 22:54   #55
  0 
kinogomes 

Joined: Feb '10
Location: Portugal
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 998
Doomdy if i loose Ak 10 times in a row against a potential weaker hands its going to kill my roll and make a big damage in my game. Because when i start to get beated frequently with this kind of hands, psychologically its going to affect your game in the near future.
Then it works like a snowball, because in the near future i wont get big profit with this hands because iam going to play a little afraid to suck out one more time, i get trapped over and over in this situations, and its not a matter of improove my game here. Witrh a big pair pair in this kind of flops its hard to put somebody in a set, most of times i put my opponent with the same pair with a weaker kicker or in a draw.

     
  19-Jan-11, 00:07   #56
  0 
B1gfoot 

Joined: Mar '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 40 (M)
Posts: 6714
ABC TAGs dont change there game. I get to take a lot of binds from them, fairly eaisly, they are sat in hope thinking when they get a hand they can bust me...Iv been there done that,but by the time they get that magic hand and play back at me Iv already took enougth blinds that I can eaisly fold, trust me Im not fishing. I play quite strong pre and post, I konw I can get my victom to fold, and Im well aware that when the TAG player is pushung back at me I need a solid hand, my small pots I take down with crap(ish) and when in a big pot Iv got a hand to beat thier furstration.
ABC players are just so predictable its funny to watch them fold all the time.
I choose my tables so I can play LAG successfully, I just love all them TAG ABC players.
Thats not to say Im always playing LAG, iv been playing long enougth to know that no one style works, its about who im playing, I just think LAG is more fun.
My win rate has no indication to whom im winning or losing to, If im honest I lose more to hyper aggresive players.
There are many people who win with alsorts of diffrent styles. IMO im a decent LAG player now from playing TAG for far to long, I know the mind set, and IMO having a 10/100 win rate over say 50k hands then either your a chicken s**t or want a big back up befor using that spine, My win rate is soon going to see me stab at NL200, just a shame I like to cash out now and then.
I said im out there killing ABC players because I do LOL, relly its that simple, I am saying its very predictable and easy to exploit.

@kinogomes perhaps its your post flop game that needs work, try losing less with the likes of AK lol, you seam to know when you take a few nasty beats you tilt, so quit when you do. TBH you are not giving any info so no one can help you if thats infact what you want.
Put up some HH if you like, hide username etc, and take on board what people are saying, losing is part of the game, lets see if we can help you lose less.

     
  19-Jan-11, 02:14   #57
  0 
cjvfruity 

Joined: Dec '10
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 39 (M)
Posts: 272
kingo, if you feel that you are being very, very, very unlucky right now, maybe go play on a different site for a while, or even take a little break. This happened to me, and I thought to myself.. Plop I must be crap at this game!

Sometimes you can find yourself trying to hard, maybe try something different, if you play cash games most of the time, go and have some fun on the $1 double ups or something, you should be able to whip those sort of games, not lots of profit, but make the game fun again until you are feeling better about your poker Smile

     
  19-Jan-11, 09:37   #58
  0 
doomdy 

Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 49 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by B1gfoot:
ABC players are just so predictable its funny to watch them fold all the time.
I choose my tables so I can play LAG successfully, I just love all them TAG ABC players.


Told you before at the end of the year only stats count, only money counts, you with 3-4BB/100 winrate and good regs play solid TAG style with winrates close to 10BB/100 and the TAG shark even over 10BB/100. I understand LAG play is more fun, offcourse it is, you play a lot more hands, and offcourse fact you win a lot small pots from TAG players, but again at the end of the year stats do only count and good regs beating ur 3-4BB/100 easily. Again no offend but these are just facts.

So now back on topic luck versus knowledge, everybody has the same lucky or unlucky hands in the long run, variance u can only beat with big samples, fact.

------------
Posted by kinogomes:
Doomdy if i loose Ak 10 times in a row against a potential weaker hands its going to kill my roll and make a big damage in my game. Because when i start to get beated frequently with this kind of hands, psychologically its going to affect your game in the near future.
Then it works like a snowball, because in the near future i wont get big profit with this hands because iam going to play a little afraid to suck out one more time, i get trapped over and over in this situations, and its not a matter of improove my game here. Witrh a big pair pair in this kind of flops its hard to put somebody in a set, most of times i put my opponent with the same pair with a weaker kicker or in a draw.


Winning players have the same unlucky hands as you fact. You can continue crying about ur the biggest unlucky player on the net. It doesnt help you becoming a winning player in the future. But if you want to continu your crying over lost flips be my guest.

Edited by doomdy (19 January 2011 @ 09:43 GMT)


     
  19-Jan-11, 10:02   #59
  0 
midnight1954 

Joined: Apr '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 65 (F)
Posts: 1010
very nice thread this dont know why it took me so long to read it but just did,, I am not going to say anything as I think Doom has said more than enough and totally agree , well said!

     
  19-Jan-11, 10:25   #60
  0 
mahdrof 

Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 50 (M)
Posts: 2386
TAG vs LAG

This thread has had a few good exchanges from both camps and this is what makes this forum really interesting. Thumbs Up

Kinogomes, maybe take a break or try a different variant of poker or such. Jovi started a thread about Rummy games a while ago, I tried it, liked it and now play semi-regularly. Keep it fun! Try MTT or SNG for a while, try anything! More sex with your girlfriend! More beer! More beer and sex! Go on vacation with your girlfriend have sex drink beer have a nice cigar etc. etc. But if poker isn't fun anymore you def. need to change something. GL! Smile

     
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