must be some heavy people involved in this...to be able to still operate after screwing over the partners. I find the biggest selling point for bot use is bonus whoring. Leaves one with the impression that one is playing against the house and the other real players are colateral damage. How successful on a % basis is the art of bonus whoring with a bot..realisticly speaking?
I couldnt give you an accurate %, but its high, but the chances of getting caught are high to. Plus most (if not all) commercial bots only play rake even on the micro stakes. Chances of getting caught are quite high, most botters who use a commercial bot use a profile from shanky technologies (brand name). This profile leaves the same signature in the form of stats, so its easy for the poker site to filter them out of the database. Plrs will be popping up after a simple query on plrs with same stats, like, "hmmm, we have hundreds of players all playing multi table several hours a day, with the same vpip% rvragg% wtshd% and what not" Thats enough evidence to shut down hundreds of accounts at once, and it happens ,
So, you multi table on the micros, like 10 hours a day, and after several days, if not weeks, you can clear a bonus of 50/100 bucks.
Really not that interesting , profit wise, or hobby wise. Its only profitable for the pll who sells such a bot.
Thanks for that reply. I suspected the risk/reward would not even out in the end. I mean here the reward doesn't justify the risk involved. For myself the biggest tell there is a bot at my table is the amount of hands they raise. A bot usually raises way too many hands, most of them marginal at best...something like a new player who plays too many hands. One way I've beat them is to do something human, random, like shove on the flop with only mid pair and they miss. They don't fold too often. I got rid of afew in the past by ID ing some of them. All I say is;' I think its a bot' in the chat box...couple of hands later they're gone. Can be quite unnerving being stuck at a table in a tourney with them. Other than the few strategies I have to beat and ID them, have you any suggestions on how to better preform against them?
Joined: Feb '08
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 35 (M)
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A combination of some already asked questions and some of my own
1. Do you think poker sites do enough to prevent botting? You say that the majority are easy to detect but given that they have to play large numbers of hands to be profitable, they must generate a lot of rake for the sites. So is it in the interest of the poker site to let some bots go?
2. which is the best way to know u are playin against a bot?
3. Which is the best way to beat a bot?
4. Do you think the number of bots in online poker is too high? Is it much of a problem for regular players or just another factor in winning on online poker?
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Cant think of any bot at my network (PKR), or i didnt notice or its too small to be profitable for a bot. Also up too 9 tables isnt sometin a bot get happy from imo. I so many times get shouted at as ''BOT'' cos my play is allways the same no matter way, easily implemented for programmer imo.
Anyway questions: (intresting topic btw)
1. What did you earn a month profit wise? 2. What did you earn a month rakeback wise? 3. What stakes did your bot play? 4. Till what stakes a bot can be profitable? 5. There are only bots at SNG/MTT or also at CASH tables? (much more difficult imo)
Maybe more questions in the future. Good thread +1
Doomdy, PKR is actually an exceptional case. Because of the dynamic 3d graphics it is VERY difficult (I tried and failed) to create a working map for any of the screen scraping systems out there. So I believe you are right about bots not being active on the pkr network. And I am not in anyway affiliated to pkr
As far as the sng/mtt Q. Our bot playd no limit cash , shallow stack. It is true it's more complicated to program then sng, but, sng players are way more skilled and thus harder to exploit. You will find more serious players at sng's even at the micros.
Joined: Nov '09
Location: Canada
Age: 55 (M)
Posts: 2387
Actually very interesting so far. At first I thought you might not be the real deal, especially when you posted and then did not answer anything, but I have since changed my mind. Thank you for coming foward and giving us some very elightening information. One quick question from me: what are the top three countries you have seen in terms of number of groups developing bots?
Joined: Mar '09
Location: Greece
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I have read lately that there are many bots in ipoker and that sites dont do much about it. Is this because you can exploit the specific platform easier?
Joined: Mar '11
Location: Canada
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Posted by jvd1986: quick reply in work time:
Doomdy, PKR is actually an exceptional case. Because of the dynamic 3d graphics it is VERY difficult (I tried and failed) to create a working map for any of the screen scraping systems out there. So I believe you are right about bots not being active on the pkr network. And I am not in anyway affiliated to pkr
As far as the sng/mtt Q. Our bot playd no limit cash , shallow stack. It is true it's more complicated to program then sng, but, sng players are way more skilled and thus harder to exploit. You will find more serious players at sng's even at the micros.
Uhm, as great and wonderful as you are for taking your precious time away from scum-botting and potentially ruining the online poker world, I'd like to take a moment to expose a few major flaws in your posts.
1. Shallow stack poker is about as unexploitable and ABC as you can get. There are literally hundreds of Nash charts online that one can base a simple shove/fold shallow stack strategy on. If you can't manage to program a sucessful shallow stack bot, I fail to see how you could tackle the subtle nuances of an unexploitable full stack bot.
2. Screen scraping should be super easy. All HUD programs, such as HEM and PT3 use that exact technology to grab stats. Mind you, they do also use information from the dealer chat, but that's beside the point. If you claim to have the programming skills you say you do, a simple programming hook for screen scraping shouldn't phase you.
Also, why did you avoid my questions?
No offense to everyone, but I'd really like to see this thread locked and possibly OP banned, as this is a pretty sketchy topic, and is starting to border "bot building tips" 101.
I mean really, it seems like OP is actually encouraging botting, which I don't think should be allowed.
Joined: May '09
Location: India
Age: 37 (M)
Posts: 4873
Posted by retribution:
No offense to everyone, but I'd really like to see this thread locked and possibly OP banned, as this is a pretty sketchy topic, and is starting to border "bot building tips" 101.
I mean really, it seems like OP is actually encouraging botting, which I don't think should be allowed.
on the contrary many people in the forum are interested in this thread it seems
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
Posted by retribution: No offense to everyone, but I'd really like to see this thread locked and possibly OP banned, as this is a pretty sketchy topic, and is starting to border "bot building tips" 101.
I mean really, it seems like OP is actually encouraging botting, which I don't think should be allowed.
Nah, why ban this thread? Its 1 of the best thread in ages imo.
Not that i want to get involved in botting but i allways wondered how easy it must be to copy my own style into a spewing multi-table bot monster. My style is not that great just good ABC and good ICM, on low/middle stakes is proven profitable which if i play 40h a week i can get easily $1K (incl bonus/cashback/ect). Not a big amount i know but its based on 4 tables multi, what about 40 tables? Must be easy to program imo.
Anyway keep on posting in this thread, great thread
Joined: Dec '09
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 42 (M)
Posts: 2087
Posted by retribution: I have a few questions.
1) How do you sleep at night 2) What is it like, not having a soul? 3) Is your mom ashamed of you? 4) Are you ashamed of yourself? 5) Why exactly did you feel it neccessary to cheat people out of money? 6) Why did you come here, and post a thinly veiled brag thread? Does it make you feel cool? 7) What's it like, being a 25 year old virgin? You say it's your girlfriends, yet you got busted. Why lie about having a gf? It's the interwebz dude, no-one gives a flying f$!@. 8) Do you think I'm cool?
Seriously, I nominate OP for a darwin award. You, sir, are pond scum. No wait, you're lower than pondscum. You're the pondscum that accumulates underneath the testicles of some sort of species that dwells in pond-scum.
lol if awards are going out i think you could be in top spot for drama
like bigfoot i dont really care if people use them like him it annoys me that pokersites allow people to use them
1: I didnt say I failed to manage to built a succesfull shallow stack bot, I said the exact opposite. To point this out I will now make an exception and quote myself (I hate to quote myself) "Our bot played no limit cash , shallow stack"
So obviously I did not mean it did not pllay LIMIT CASH SHALLOW STACK but it played NLSS, no limit shallow stack.
2: First off, to make sure we understand eachother, in the answer I was talking about pkr as pkr the pokeroom, bot as in pkr short for poker in general.
So, yes screenscraping is easy , time consuming but easy. Scraping an ever dynamic 3d screen (thus with images of cards/chips etc, increasing, decreasing in size, changing angles etc) is not easy.
It is almost undoable, not only because I failed. but because the whole botting community failed as far as I know.
And, if you know of any pokertracking software with a screen scraping funcion for PKR, please, do tell me.
I would like to point out I started this topic, not to encourage people to bot, and im not, nor am I explaining the details about how to built a bot. I am just trying to clear a little of the botting myth, so people either stop worrying or do whatever they can to defend themselfs from bots.
Now what is it exactly that makes you think I am somekind of attention seeking kid trying to boast with some waste of time, work of fiction.
what do you want exactly, should I "prove" I did this by explaining everyone step by step how? If I do so, you will be right about this being a topic which should be locked .
As to avoiding your earlyier Q's. Im not, Im ignoring them. That aren't questions , but insults, or attempts to flame.
This is not a topic about moral discussions, about if botting should or should not be allowed. Nor is it a topic about me as a person.
------------ "I have read lately that there are many bots in ipoker and that sites dont do much about it. Is this because you can exploit the specific platform easier?""
I think it is because the ipoker network is less sophisticated in bot detection.
Joined: May '08
Location: Netherlands
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 6197
@Retribution: First read then mouth else stfu.
Other questions to OP: 1. At what poker network are the most bots working? Maybe you dont know, just estimated figures? 2. I questined before but you didnt answer or i didnt read, At wot stakes bots are still profitable, imo there is NO bot which can compete with a good winning player right? (or am i wrong?) For example SNG, bots are profitable at up to $50 stakes? Going higher is suicide for a bot? I have no idea. 3. Imo SNG (TAG, ICM) and CASH(SS) is easiest to program am i right? I guess CASH full stack and MTT (deep stack, deep structure) are the hardest maybe not even intresting? 4 I questioned this before maybe you dont want to answer: What was your monthly income with this botting incl cashback offcourse and what figures: Stakes/ROI/%winnings versus cashback ect.
Joined: Nov '10
Location: Serbia
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Posts: 2087
I have one. What do you think how many bot players are there in general in online poker? What is chance to bump into one of those during one session? I know that you dont know exactly but if you could say your opinion. And yes. Great tread indeed. Good to find out about this stuff. @retribution: this guy is giving us info about bots and we want to know. You think thats bad? You think there will be more bots because of this tread. For example, he can draw it to me how to make one I still wouldnt know even what he is talking about. And even if I knew I wouldnt try because risk is too high.
Joined: Jan '09
Location: Italy
Age: 53 (M)
Posts: 3871
Posted by doomdy: I repeat great thread
agree with this I didn't know almost nothing about bot before reading this post, now I know somehing more and it is positive for me and for BRM community IMO....so let this thread going on
also like personal style of answering of OP
also respect retribution opinion except for closing this thread
so I will ask again some elementary questions
1) how can I know I'm playing against a bot 2) once I know how I can defeat it 3) is your girlfriend a male? ......naah....sorry just joking but couldn't resist
the way I see this is, the knowledge is all the same; ti's the intent in which it is used that determines weather for good or ill. So, here if I increase my knowledge base with regards to improving my game espically against bots then I'm all eyes and ears. I'm here to learn how to better detect and/or defeat them. If this thread cannot provide me with that knowledge...then...the choise is clear.
